Topic: Episode #55

[PG109]

The first thing that is wrong with it is that it is making decidedly false claims, which allow it to enjoy a reputation as something that has a measure of efficacy, which then makes people think that is is the treatment for alcoholism.  Since a large part of it is religious in nature, this basically just is a recruitment technique for religions.

As for the argument that "it helps a small amount of people", this is not a verified statement.  All we know is that from the numbers we managed to wrangle out of them, it has no higher of a percentage of turnover than people quitting on their own.  That doesn't say, to me, that those people were at all helped by AA.  It's like saying that because some people feel better on placebo, placebo has efficacy in some cases.

As for the idea that it is contradictory to say that it is not a disease but leaving it untreated is harmful, I don't really like the implications of that.  There are plenty of things that are not diseases that can have harmful effects if left untended.  For example, it is not a disease, per se, if someone convinces you that all of life's problems come from hair, and that you should spend all your time pulling out or shaving every hair from your body, but this could seriously fuck up your life.  That example, in particular, mimics a disease (trichotillomania), and would probably have the same consequences, but obviously does not have the same root cause.

[jason]

But if alcoholism isn't a true medical condition, as he argues, and there are no effective alternative social solutions, then what's the harm with AA?

As Paul pointed out, the harm is that it appears it doesn't work. Its cultish attributes appear to make it more than just a harmless waste of time.

As to there being no other effective treatments to alcoholism... I don't know for sure (never something I've looked at), but would suspect that there valid alternatives (such as cognitive therapy or other psychological modalities) that may help.

[jason]

This thread may be of interest: Alcoholics Anonymous. Some alternatives are discussed, along with AA's problems.

[Mike]

There was an interesting episode about AA on P&T's BS.  It was one of the last ones in season 2.

[McDoctor]

Thanks for the link directly to the AA thread. However, all things considered, on the spectrum of all things harmful discussed on these boards, I just don't see how AA falls anywhere beyond just mild to moderately irritating. I'll leave it at that.

Salerno's book was a good read, nonetheless.

[IRON MAN]

I have some insight into AA because I used to be heavily involved in Network Marketing, (which quite obviously derives many of it's methods from AA - even many of the sayings are the same, eg. "It won't work unless you work it").  I lost a lot of money doing that, but you know, that isn't what annoys me the most.  In fact, I don't even care about the money when it comes right down to it, I can always make more.

What really chaps my arse is the time I wasted.  These arseholes were happy to have me going to meeting after meeting, sapping away my life just so they could line their pockets.  I'd rather have a cat burglar rob me in the dead of night - then it's just about money.

It doesn't matter what I would do with that time otherwise, it has to be way more beneficial than sitting in their stupid meetings.  Even if I spent that time watching Golden Girls reruns, at least I am doing something I choose, that makes me happy.  That's what these bastards take from you - literally your life.

Also, in order to make you believe their crap, they have to compromise your ability to think critically in the first place, which effectively leaves you vulnerable to almost any bullshit.  If there's truly any such thing as brainwashing - this is it.  The only problem with it is, a person who is not thinking straight will believe just about anything.  This is probably why cults have to cut you off from the outside world - to eliminate the competition.

Ever heard that saying, "If you don't stand for something you'll fall for anything"?  Well I'd say it's a case of, "If you'll fall for something, you'll fall for anything".

This is the harm that these scumbags are doing.  Stripping their victims of their ability to think rationally and thus protect themselves from the harsher realities of life.  Your brain gets so full of simplistic slogans and internally conflicting platitudes you barely know which way is up.  



You reject your friends and family if they don't agree, you hurt people emotionally, and if you're lucky enough to get out, and smart enough to choke down your own pride, you'll get the opportunity to apologise to them on your knees for being so stupid.  If you're real lucky, a significant percentage of them will forgive you - but never all of them.

Rate a little better on the harmful scale now?

[McDoctor]

I think a key difference is that people who wander into AA are already socially dysfunctional. They often already have alienated their friends and family. They waste immense amounts of time drinking. There's a huge difference between AA and network marketing for that reason.