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Protecting the Little Ones From God

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DeepGlue:
I'm so, so sorry for your loss, Aaron.


--- Quote from: AaronSTL on Mar 20, 2009, 01:12:13 PM ---Am I completely biased or is there any way one could reasonably justify this kind of tragedy to be internally consistent with their theology?
--- End quote ---

I would like to hear arguments for this kind of justification as well. However as far as I can reason, if there were a personal Creator who loves everyone, bad things would not happen to innocent people. The only reason a God would do that would be to serve as some kind of lesson to others - sacrificing parts to help the whole. Which might be a fine thing to do by some peoples' standards, but not to most Christians, and I would think not to anyone judging an omnipotent being who could teach lessons any way it wanted to.

Therefore anyone with a "normal" interpretation of Christian doctrine simply can't think these issues through far enough without compromising their beliefs. So everyone says "It's a miracle! God loves us so much!" when nice things happen, and when bad things happen - especially bad things that no one has any control over - everyone says "God has a mysterious plan" or what-have-you.

It's the same thing with prayer in general. Sports team A and B both pray for victory. Farmers pray for rain while people in the nearby city pray for sun. People pray for their loved ones to get better - but why are they sick in the first place? And what about God's plans? Is God going to change his mind? Deriving comfort from prayer is another logical loop-de-loop that believers need to travel to keep using their crutch.

Ultimately your believer friends are comforting you the same way that they would comfort themselves. And perhaps they are comforting themselves as well, in a way. I would earnestly thank them, and clarify my position only if they pressed with a religious conversation. And I would be proud of not needing a crutch to weather intense emotional hardship that comes with no explanation.

Phil Clemence:
The pain of loss is one of the hardest things to deal with and i think planting something is a really good example of something fulfilling to do. I saw a clip of an athiest couple dealing who did the same after losing a young child, and going through the same sort of thing with friends and relatives. They settled their discomfort about that through talking. I got the feeling it had been some time since it happened - they seemed to be models of thoughtfulness, composure and healthy balance  ::) Well, time heals... 

 We have evolved to look for reasons and there is an emotional drive to try. It really is the chaos that spiritual practices are often used - (as a crutch, really), It is in our relationship with the unknown and the chaotic that we have the most trouble. I think most spiritual practices work by way of distraction from normal modes of thinking (in these cases, often circular and obsessive, because there a no purposeful reasons for events)
Knowing that helps realize we can find better ways of dealing with not being given justice and purposes in nature. We can make our own - we give meaning to life - only we can and it matters only to us - and it is the most important thing for us. We really are god.   

rmcbride:
I'm sorry to hear what happened Aaron.  While I haven't gone through what you have I think I can imagine how you feel.

Planting a tree would be a great thing to do.  Don't worry about what  others think of your remorse strategy, no matter what you do believers will fold your actions into consistancy with their world view.

Evil Eye:
Sorry A.

Are you cool with the "s**t happens" idea?

You can't be angry at a God you don't believe in.

Hopefully, you are strong enough to overcome this whole episode and move forward.

This might come off as callous, but I definitely don't mean it to.... and it probably isn't any consolation, but at least they didn't make it to any age that you would have had time to bond for real.

That is really hard.

Much love your way.

KarenX:
I don't know how old the ceremony/rituals are, but in Japan there are shrines to the mizuko-kuyo, or babies who are lost before birth. I knew the word, but nothing more, so I was looking around online and stumbled on this book about it: Mourning the Unborn Dead. It looks like it's a sociological take rather than a handbook, maybe there's something in there that would be comforting.

Planting trees sounds lovely.

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