Author Topic: hardcore history  (Read 16193 times)

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Offline seaotter

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Re: hardcore history
« Reply #135 on: July 06, 2016, 10:35:28 AM »
My impression is that it's really Russia's fault (everybody was at fault but Russia pushed the big red button).
If by "Russia" you mean "Hindenburg and Ludendorff", I agree. All Russia really did was announce that they were protecting Bosnia or whoever the hell it was, which was something that everybody knew was going to happen from the beginning - in fact, if memory serves Germany was kind of counting on it, since Russia would bring in France and they'd be able to trot out the (unworkable) Schlieffen Plan on them.

Nope. Russia mobilized. The German plan what was it called? Required getting done before the bear could get into the fight. Once Russia started mobilization the clock was ticking. And of course the French should have been making sure the Russians didn't do that.
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Online Johnny Slick

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Re: hardcore history
« Reply #136 on: July 06, 2016, 10:36:44 AM »
I literally named the German plan in the post you were responding to.
Speak what you think now in hard words, and to-morrow speak what to-morrow thinks in hard words again, though it contradict every thing you said to-day.

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Offline seaotter

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Re: hardcore history
« Reply #137 on: July 06, 2016, 10:38:24 AM »
I literally named the German plan in the post you were responding to.

It was the Ludendorff plan? Well it sucked until you had stukas.

Oh Schelfien plan! Oh yeah. You see how far I read.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2016, 10:41:30 AM by seaotter »
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Offline seaotter

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Re: hardcore history
« Reply #138 on: July 06, 2016, 10:40:02 AM »
Have y'all listened to the When Diplomacy Fails take on the beginning of the war?
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Re: hardcore history
« Reply #139 on: July 06, 2016, 11:10:34 AM »
No, I disagree with that; many people really did want another war. What they didn't want was a slog of a war that killed millions, lasted years, and bankrupted the economies of several states, but since there had really never been a war like that before in world history one can kind of understand why they thought things would be over by Christmas. But Germany in particular but also France flat-out wanted a war. They had pretty much forgotten how brutal wars can be, and even at that the one in anybody's memory (the Franco-Prussian conflict) was over fairly quickly and resolved with a comparatively low amount of bloodshed (I wouldn't say the same about the Crimean War but it was 70 years old by the time of WWI - asking people to remember the lessons of it is a bit like asking Americans to remember the lessons of the Korean War).

I see most of that as sabre-rattling. Germany was preparing for a defensive war, as it had nothing really to achieve apart from war itself. France knew it very well that Germany was stronger than itself and even if they wanted Alsace-Lorraine back, they knew that they couldn't just attack because the UK would not support them in a war of aggression. Russia had no interest in open warfare and Italy was also not that belligerent.

This is really why I blame Austria-Hungary first and Germany second. Had Austria-Hungary not attacked Serbia with German authorisation, we would not have had a war. There was just no sane reason to trigger the whole mess.

Online Johnny Slick

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Re: hardcore history
« Reply #140 on: July 06, 2016, 11:23:19 AM »
Well, that much I agree with (your last paragraph). I think that Hindenburg and Ludendorff were strongly agitating for war for quite a while and I'll go so far as to say that I don't think you can call the Schlieffen Plan, which went into great detail about exactly how the German armed forces would sweep through France like a swinging door, right on down to the levels of supply each army would receive each day, a plan for a "defensive war". I do think that Austria-Hungary did proclaim war a bit too loudly but I also think they were egged on by H-L into doing do. I think that H-L also thought/gambled that England would stay out of the war entirely or else would pull out of it once the German might became too oppressive for them or something, and all in all I am 100% positive that nobody on either side had any notion that the war was going to be the meat grinder that it became.

Another point to be raised there is that in the US at least, Germany is so obviously the villain in WW2 that it's easy to put them in the same role in WW1, particularly since we ended up fighting them (in part because of a largely trumped up telegram that was sent to Mexico to try and get them into the war on the side of the Central Powers). The reality is that the Great War did not have cut and dried good guys and bad guys the way that the Second World War did; atrocities were committed by both sides, the worst of which being, ironically, perpetrated by those same Serbians whose own oppressed status helped lead to the terrorist attack that started the war. I feel like when you have a situation like this, it's a decent narrative exercise to present things, at least temporarily, from the other side's perspective, and I give Carlin the benefit of the doubt here in saying that that's why he opened up with a POV more sympathetic to the Central Powers than you might have preferred.
Speak what you think now in hard words, and to-morrow speak what to-morrow thinks in hard words again, though it contradict every thing you said to-day.

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Re: hardcore history
« Reply #141 on: July 06, 2016, 11:59:28 AM »
Well, that much I agree with (your last paragraph). I think that Hindenburg and Ludendorff were strongly agitating for war for quite a while and I'll go so far as to say that I don't think you can call the Schlieffen Plan, which went into great detail about exactly how the German armed forces would sweep through France like a swinging door, right on down to the levels of supply each army would receive each day, a plan for a "defensive war". I do think that Austria-Hungary did proclaim war a bit too loudly but I also think they were egged on by H-L into doing do. I think that H-L also thought/gambled that England would stay out of the war entirely or else would pull out of it once the German might became too oppressive for them or something, and all in all I am 100% positive that nobody on either side had any notion that the war was going to be the meat grinder that it became.

It was a weird kind of defensive war. It has some kind of a strange logic to it... Germany knew that if war came, it would most likely lose against Russia and France. The only way not to lose was to gamble on being aggressive and going on a pre-emptive offensive to knock out the French while keeping the Russians at bay, then turn around and face the longer fight. I would still count this as a defensive war as all Germany wanted to achieve is not being defeated. It definitely did not want to conquer and annex/subjugate France or Russia.

Another point to be raised there is that in the US at least, Germany is so obviously the villain in WW2 that it's easy to put them in the same role in WW1, particularly since we ended up fighting them (in part because of a largely trumped up telegram that was sent to Mexico to try and get them into the war on the side of the Central Powers). The reality is that the Great War did not have cut and dried good guys and bad guys the way that the Second World War did; atrocities were committed by both sides, the worst of which being, ironically, perpetrated by those same Serbians whose own oppressed status helped lead to the terrorist attack that started the war. I feel like when you have a situation like this, it's a decent narrative exercise to present things, at least temporarily, from the other side's perspective, and I give Carlin the benefit of the doubt here in saying that that's why he opened up with a POV more sympathetic to the Central Powers than you might have preferred.

Absolutely, WWI was pretty much all grey. Maybe the Belgians were all right...

Offline InsanePat

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Re: hardcore history
« Reply #142 on: July 06, 2016, 08:06:42 PM »
the story that sticks usually is the winner's one. so the narrative have german side being the bad one. Seems to me that it's a bit like middle age wars, opposite sides that hated each other, alliances, war, a winner, his narrative.

Offline amysrevenge

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Re: hardcore history
« Reply #143 on: January 25, 2017, 12:22:23 PM »
New episode today.  Early Cold War one-off.
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Offline Gerbig

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Re: hardcore history
« Reply #144 on: January 25, 2017, 12:38:11 PM »
New episode today.  Early Cold War one-off.

Bittersweet.

Because in six short hours, a long wait begins.

Offline Sordid

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Re: hardcore history
« Reply #145 on: January 26, 2017, 02:06:22 PM »
Yep. It took six months to produce those six hours. Used to be these came out every two or three months, now we're up to six. I do love Carlin and I'm super grateful for every episode but I just can't help wishing he'd get on with it.

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Re: hardcore history
« Reply #146 on: January 26, 2017, 02:21:05 PM »
He even paused Common Sense to focus on finishing.

I'm about 1/5 of the way in, enjoying it so far.  Nothing shocking/unknown just yet, but I'm hoping we'll get into stuff I've not encountered once he actually gets deep into the Cuban Missile Crises.

Offline lubbarin

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Re: hardcore history
« Reply #147 on: January 26, 2017, 02:23:50 PM »
Pretty much sails through the actual crisis.
Good episode, though. Seems like the core of it is to put the gravity back in to all the "finger on the button" talk.
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Offline Gerbig

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Re: hardcore history
« Reply #148 on: January 26, 2017, 02:47:40 PM »
I love hardcore history, but in the current political crisis, I really want more Common Sense.