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Author Topic: Episode #211  (Read 6066 times)

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SimonW

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Re: Episode #211
« Reply #60 on: August 09, 2009, 10:50:56 AM »
I was surprised to see that there was a separate definition for "deficiency" and "insufficiency" in vitamin intake. I think these words are too similar and so could cause confusion to the general public

As far as vitamin D goes I think there is (or was) a genuine issue with definitions. Deficiency was used to describe levels of vitamin D that cause rickets (and similar), where as "insufficiency" was related to higher levels of osteoporosis (the clinical significance of which is unclear to me, but in terms of dietary choices seems to be something that one would choose to avoid).

But I think a simple number (RDA, or even 4 numbers) is probably not useful. For example different races may have different needs for vitamin D (the reason for which are not all known yet). Different people (within the same ethnic group) can metabolize vitamin D differently. Women are also much more prone to osteoporosis than men. Thus epidemiologists seem to use serum concentrations to assess if someone has sufficient vitamin D intake for themselves, rather than say dietary intake, or sun exposure, both of which are tricky to measure.

I (and I assume others) queried the Marshall Protocol related research used in Science or Fiction. Which further muddies the vitamin D story. Marshall had a condition which is (now recognised to be - at least sometimes) worsened by Vitamin D, but was thought to be autoimmune in nature when Marshall was diagnosed. Marshall's protocol assumes vitamin D is bad for many autoimmune diseases, where as other scientists have concluded that vitamin D helps regulate the immune response preventing the development of autoimmune disorders (hence the use mentioned in MS earlier in this episodes thread, and is why I thought the reference in Science or Fiction was so suspect).

This improved regulation of the immune response is why the regulators have upped the vitamin D content of baby formula, and encouraged other forms of vitamin D supplementation. To prevent insufficiency/deficiency of vitamin D.

However whilst Steve said he wouldn't have used the Marshall Protocol research if he'd recognised the agenda behind it, I don't mean to be too critical of it. Clearly there were unrecognised issues relating to vitamin D in Sarcoidosis. Some other autoimmune complaints are aggravated by sunlight (famously Lupus). And vitamin D metabolism is known to be affected by genes that correlate with some other autoimmune disorders (the convention assumption is that the enhanced immune regulation from vitamin D is lost by these mutations).

The problem with the Marshall Protocol research is more that the researchers have assumed their conclusion are right (avoiding vitamin D fixes certain autoimmune disorders), and suffer from the usual issues of understanding like confirmation bias. Certainly some people have avoided vitamin D and got better from complaints, in some cases this may be coincidence (natural progression), in a few cases it may be clinically significant. But till the mechanisms are better understood, and the results replicated in independent trials the message on vitamin D remains "a little sunshine each day is good for your metabolism but bad for your risk of skin cancer".

Some times there aren't easy answers to give, we aren't perfectly adapted to life on earth.
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Steven Novella

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Re: Episode #211
« Reply #61 on: August 09, 2009, 11:09:54 AM »
regarding philosophical positions being right or wrong - I was limiting my comments to facts, as I said (although this is usually a point that needs clarifying).

Anytime there is a subjective value judgment involved, there can be multiple valid opinions and not necessarily one correct answer.

But the question made a specific analogy to science, and so I said the analogy holds with regard to any factual claims.
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Steven Novella
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Trinoc

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Re: Episode #211
« Reply #62 on: August 09, 2009, 11:23:29 AM »
I would consider it non-negotiable that more than one mutually contradictory fact can not simultaneously be true in the real world, but can we assume that people who live by faith or other subjective models of the world agree with this? I've met plenty of people who seem to have no problem at all with the 1984-style double-think trick of simultaneously believing two mutually incompatible ideas.
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Evil Eye

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Re: Episode #211
« Reply #63 on: August 09, 2009, 11:51:06 AM »
regarding philosophical positions being right or wrong - I was limiting my comments to facts, as I said (although this is usually a point that needs clarifying).

Anytime there is a subjective value judgment involved, there can be multiple valid opinions and not necessarily one correct answer.

But the question made a specific analogy to science, and so I said the analogy holds with regard to any factual claims.

Gotcha. My son is trying to write a paper on the very subject, and I am trying to keep him from using facts in a philosophical debate. He is supposed to take a position for one side, and keeps using words like all or most. I keep trying to tell him that unless he has the facts to back it up, he should refrain from using absolutes.

IE: instead of saying "Most people think" ... say "Some people may believe".
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Trinoc

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Re: Episode #211
« Reply #64 on: August 09, 2009, 12:53:43 PM »
Gotcha. My son is trying to write a paper on the very subject, and I am trying to keep him from using facts in a philosophical debate. He is supposed to take a position for one side, and keeps using words like all or most. I keep trying to tell him that unless he has the facts to back it up, he should refrain from using absolutes.

IE: instead of saying "Most people think" ... say "Some people may believe".

So, are you teaching him that philosophy has no verifiable content ... that it is based on rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty?
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teacherninja

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Re: Episode #211
« Reply #65 on: August 09, 2009, 01:12:18 PM »
Just listened to this episode and cracked up at the mention of "fanny."  Yes, the British use it that way as well.  We had a British kid come to our high school and he didn't hit it off with our math teacher, to say the least.  On his first day there he walked up and asked her for "a rubber" (meaning an eraser to him) and she thought he was messing with her.  Then (since we were at a private school and called teachers by their first names) when someone told her about the linguistic mix-up by saying "It's ok, Fanny" the kid got wide-eyed and laughed at her, "That's your NAME!?!" he cried.  Fun day for all involved.
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kem

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Re: Episode #211
« Reply #66 on: August 09, 2009, 02:10:31 PM »
Well I attended a lecture given by a physician/researcher from Monash University and he gave us figures that showed that population figures show that people that get more sun exposure get less cancer, nearly all cancers, including skin cancer.  The proviso was that this was for the general population and there are regional subsets that are more likely to skin cancers with solar exposure.  And guess where the ancestors of most Aussies (and Kiwis) come from. 

The suggestion for the white audience (already with somes sort of cancer, though none of the group was suffering from melanoma) was to get lots of sun but cover up before you turn pink.  And haven't researchers from CA shown that the RDA for vit d  be upped by an ordere of magnitude?  And isn't the RDA based on a rather sedentary prison population?
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SkepHick

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Re: Episode #211
« Reply #67 on: August 09, 2009, 02:34:34 PM »
Steve:  "We need to peel kids away from their videos, computer screens, and iPods and get them ouside more."

Just FYI, Steve, they have iPods you can take outside now...   :)
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jorum

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Re: Episode #211
« Reply #68 on: August 09, 2009, 02:46:19 PM »
Edit: Too easy to guess the probiotics one was the fiction ... SGU would never run a story that confirmed something "woo" like that was true! Odd that Bob and Rebecca didn't toe the skeptical line about this one though -- maybe they just thought the other ones were even more implausible and Steve was pulling a fast one.

But supposing there had been something in ... whatever it as called.  Just because it's "probiotic" doesn't mean there can't be some sort of active ingredient.  And if a proper study or trial had shown an objective effect - well, what a great SoF item it would have been.
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Trinoc

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Re: Episode #211
« Reply #69 on: August 09, 2009, 02:55:55 PM »
Edit: Too easy to guess the probiotics one was the fiction ... SGU would never run a story that confirmed something "woo" like that was true! Odd that Bob and Rebecca didn't toe the skeptical line about this one though -- maybe they just thought the other ones were even more implausible and Steve was pulling a fast one.
But supposing there had been something in ... whatever it as called.  Just because it's "probiotic" doesn't mean there can't be some sort of active ingredient.  And if a proper study or trial had shown an objective effect - well, what a great SoF item it would have been.

Well, there are certain things that are associated in the typical Skeptical mind with "woo" ... vitamin supplements, herbal medicines, organic food and, yes, probiotics ... so I would be very surprised if a skeptical podcast reported on a study showing any of these to have more than placebo effect without including some very stiff disclaimers about how they believe the research will most probably turn out to be bunk.

The earlier vitamin D study which Steve mentioned from another podcast, and which he now says is rather discredited, suggested that too much vitamin D could have adverse effects. I strongly suspect that if the study had shown either adverse effects from too little vitamin D, or good effects from higher vitamin D intake, then it would have been treated with a lot more caution at the time.
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thelaughingdog

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Re: Episode #211
« Reply #70 on: August 09, 2009, 03:59:29 PM »
I am infuriated right now in regards to the interview.  I had to shut it off for a moment and collect my composure.

I am a woman,  a skeptic, and I attended TAM7.  I completely disagree with Carrie Iwan and Rebecca on how women are treated and portrayed in the skeptic community.  As soon as I regain my composure enough to write my thoughts rationally and coherently, I shall do so here...

« Last Edit: August 09, 2009, 04:23:06 PM by thelaughingdog »
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Trinoc

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Re: Episode #211
« Reply #71 on: August 09, 2009, 04:00:39 PM »
Maybe I'm missing something, but can someone please explain to me how "one cold-hearted bitch with a 14-inch strap-on" is a valid analogy for science?
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seaotter

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Re: Episode #211
« Reply #72 on: August 09, 2009, 04:39:37 PM »
Maybe I'm missing something, but can someone please explain to me how "one cold-hearted bitch with a 14-inch strap-on" is a valid analogy for science?

Really? Science doesn't care what you think or how you feel. You follow the facts where they go.
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seaotter

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Re: Episode #211
« Reply #73 on: August 09, 2009, 04:41:50 PM »
I am infuriated right now in regards to the interview.  I had to shut it off for a moment and collect my composure.

I am a woman,  a skeptic, and I attended TAM7.  I completely disagree with Carrie Iwan and Rebecca on how women are treated and portrayed in the skeptic community.  As soon as I regain my composure enough to write my thoughts rationally and coherently, I shall do so here...


http://sguforums.com/index.php/topic,21834.0.html
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Trinoc

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Re: Episode #211
« Reply #74 on: August 09, 2009, 05:48:00 PM »
Maybe I'm missing something, but can someone please explain to me how "one cold-hearted bitch with a 14-inch strap-on" is a valid analogy for science?
Really? Science doesn't care what you think or how you feel. You follow the facts where they go.

OK ... so you compare it to some other uncaring entity ... the weather, or death, or taxes, perhaps. Comparing it to "one cold-hearted bitch with a 14-inch strap-on" seems to be implying (from what you say) that the woman in question would be an uncaring entity ... not to mention the designation being both sexist and gratuitously titillating as well.
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