A Saturday well spent:
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(T-Approx-44:01)Carrie: "Well I wrote a little blogpost that kind of ended up creating more of a stir than I thought about Bill pradeys talk and just generally relating that to some attitudes I've noticed in the skeptical movement toward women and sort of trying to get at maybe some of the underlying things that keep women out of the movement."
(T-Approx-44:35)Carrie: "Just to give you background, I had never seen the show before the talk so I was kind of coming into it cold, you know I didn't really have contacts with the show and they showed this series of clips that sort of set me up to have the reaction I did to his later comments and it just seemed to me that every clip that was shown in the presentation, in every single one of them a woman was either the butt of the joke or a beautiful woman that one of the characters is trying to impress is just so far outside of the realm of intelligence, that the character is, that she can't relate to him at all. So in other words the sexy woman doesn't like the smart guy."
(T-Approx-45:52)Carrie: "What I'm trying to get at is, yeah I'm not going to try to deconstruct a silly sitcom and think that it should jive with the real world but I think it’s just sort of helpful in understanding some of the dynamics that create problems for women existing in groups with guys that sort of fit that category and I think a lot of it comes from that sort of idea that they're playing with that in the big bang theory that um, sort of quote on quote geeky guys feel like women are these alien beings that in order to get like, in order to ever get layed you have to learn the language to talk to them and it’s this one specific language that they think that if they can just crack the code and understand women they'll be good to go. I just think that that causes a lot of the issues that we have.
(T-Approx-46:51)Rebecca: "And do you want to say exactly what Bill Pragle said?"
(T-Approx-46:55)Carrie: "Oh sure, and then later on in his talk he made this joke, his general theme was about being a skeptic without being an asshole and he gave an example of if you go into a bar as a guy and you're chattin' up a girl and she asks you what your sign is, you should do a test and half the time you explain to her why astrology is bullshit and the other half of the time just tell her that she has pretty eyes and see how many times you get anywhere. It was probably innocently met and as, you know, he did respond with a note to us basically saying he could have reversed the genders he didn't mean it as a sexist joke which is fair enough but it, to me, it indicates a lack of understanding of his audience, I mean it it felt to me and a lot of the women in the room that he didn't see us at all, that we weren't even there and it just, it really felt excluding to a lot of us."
(T-Approx-48:01)Rebecca: "Yeah the women in the audience definitely seemed to exchange glances in that moment and say, you know, actually if a guy came up to me and said I had pretty eyes I would ignore him and his empty platitudes but if a guy were to start up a conversation about interesting research that would be much more interesting and attractive to me, so, what woman is this guy talking about? And I think we all had this idea of a, the person he might have in mind and it was, and you're right Carrie when viewed in context with what we had just seen with the television clips that it definitely came across as, um, 'I only understand women to be this type of woman where she's not interested in science she's only interested in looks and shallower things.' I think we all kind of shared that moment that we suddenly felt like something other than the men."
(T-Approx-49:07)Carrie: "And I don't wanna get hung up on the particular politics of the show I just think that some of the stereotypes in the show are indicative of what is happening in real life and in that sense I think we can maybe learn from it and sort of use it as a mirror in a little, you know, as an exaggerated mirror of what’s really going on and trying to use that knowledge to have a discussion about."
(T-Approx-49:30)Bob: I, I agree...
(T-Approx-49:31)Rebecca: [interrupting Bob] "....and, and, and Bill Pradey has brought up the idea that it's not his job to present a, you know, a fair view of scientists and it's not his job to speak up for feminists and for female scientists, uh, but I think that it’s just taking the easy road out to ignore that segment of the population and I think that so many other shows do a wonderful job of showing nerdy women like mythbusters, you know, look at, even though it's two guys that started out the whole thing you've got, like, Carrey who steps up and she's awesome, you know. She's nerdy, she's fun, she's artsy, she's pretty much everything - she's a real person."
(T-Approx-50:44)Steve: "...so what do you guys think about, how do you feel as a woman in the skeptical movement at a meeting like TAM?"
(T-Approx-50:51)Carrie: "I feel generally feel with the community with the audience and everybody there I feel pretty, pretty equal and it seems like good things are happening and we're moving in the right direction. It seems to me, and I mean I've only been to two TAMS, so, you know, I'm kind of a new, but, it sorta seems like the programming is fairly entrenched and it feels to me a little bit like a boys club and you know like I said I'm a newb and I don't know the whole process or anything like that. It seems like it more difficult for women to get into the programming and that may just be a function of fewer women being in the movement, but I'd like to see you know, instead of, you know, one of the same old same old guys up there giving the, essentially, the same talk year after year, which you know, to be fair may make some people come to see that. I'd much rather see some new faces and you know I'm not saying I'm advocating "tokenism" but I would love to see some more women up there.
(T-Approx-51:59)Rebecca: "Yeah, I totally agree and I think it’s interesting it’s, I don't aahhh, I certainly don't ever feel as though I'm um put down because of being a woman at TAM. I always have a great time and I always get along very well with, as Carrie said, with the rest of the community that comes out but Steve, you mentioned you go and it seems all very egalitarian, everything seems fair, but um, I do think that part of that comes from being a, you know, a white male who is can see an entire conference of white males and not really notice that there's anything amiss. Once you, ahaahh, as a woman, like one of the first things I just happened to notice is that there is only one woman on the um, the speakers, Jennifer Wulett [sp?] and the Harriet Hall [sp?] was on a panel I think and that was it. And uh it you know, and we're talking about sexism here not anything else, but every single speaker and on every single panel included was white. I mean that and, you know, that's not actually representative of the scientific community, of the rationalist community, there are so many other people there who are female who are um, black or Hispanic or Indian um, you know, I think that it's not, of course, it’s not a focus of TAM to, to, be diverse I don't think that's anywhere near the top of their priorities but I think that it should be and in the coming years I think that it would be fantastic if they would start focusing on just being like the largest conference for skeptics that there’s this certain responsibility to do a good job of representing the community and presenting um, an interesting mix of backgrounds and viewpoints ."
(T-Approx-54:12)Steve: "...were putting together the speaker list for TAM 7 they asked me directly, "We want more women in the lineup for TAM 7." For whatever reason this year it just worked out that a lot of the women they invited to speak couldn't make it and they said, "Give us some names, tell us some women so we can have a little bit more balance in the speaker list" so they were very conscious of that. They were going out of their way to do that, it just didn't work out that way this year."
(T-Approx-54:41)Carrie: "Well, that brings up a really good point too just about what we as women can do like he said you know, just, in recruiting and speaking up and saying 'hey this woman would be a really great speaker at TAM' also within the community and a big part of what happened on my blogpost was basically a bickering match about what is, how to be an appropriate woman in skepticism and I just think that that does nothing to help us because that is basically saying that there is one way to be a woman in the movement and then automatically you're excluding any other type of woman than the woman you are and that is just, just horrible and damaging and we just can't do it. And I know that it comes out of a place of insecurity and a place of just knowing how you have gotten to where you are and just assuming that everyone else should do the same and I it just, in the big picture it doesn't help.
(T-Approx-55:43)Rebecca: "Yeah I think that's a really good point, um, and that was prompted by a blogpost and it wasn't the only one. I saw a few where people would talk about, you know, usually the younger crowd that was starting to come out to TAMs because I think that every year we're getting a little younger and there's more, um, we are getting more diverse, you know, the community starting to attract more people from alternative, sort of, paths, lifestyles, and I think that sort of freaks some people out. But I think it is something to be embraced because if you look at it, I mean, Sue Blackmore I think is a great example of someone who does not come across as anything approaching conservative, but you know, she's she's an awesome skeptic with some interesting ideas that could contribute to the skeptical community and I think it’s important that we not reject people like that.
(T-Approx-56:38)(Bob: [States that, regarding diversity of people signing up for TAM, women sign-ons were up 40%]
(T-Approx-56:55)Rebecca: "I don't think that it's quite to 40 yet."
(T-Approx-56:58)Bob: "But it was the biggest."
(T-Approx-56:59)Rebecca: "Yeah definitely, I think every year I think and also it's not to me, it's not just the fact that there are more women in the seats but that you see so many more women who are um excited to be there and who are not say, just a spouse who's been dragged along. And in fact there were a number of women who I met that came up and said 'I had to come and I dragged along my husband,' you know, and to me that was really cool.
(T-Approx-57:30)Steve: "Do you think that there is any lingering sexism within Skepticism itself?"
(T-Approx-57:33)Carrie: "I think there definitely is. You know, like we were saying, I think it's kind of on the way out but I really tend to think of the women in skepticism problem as a social problem more than an intellectual problem or a 'how do we communicate better problem.' I think it has everything to do with how people have historically joined the movement and as internet and podcasts and different things like that create these online communities I just think we're going to see more women come in."
(T-Approx-58:04)Rebecca: "I don't think that it’s ever a case of men that are trying to keep women out of the skeptical community or anything like that."
(T-Approx-58:13)Steve: "Do you feel that, that you were held back in any way or do you think it’s more of those kind of unconscious just like stereotyping type sexism that you see?"
(T-Approx-58:23)Rebecca: "Well yeah, well that's an interesting way to put things because would you feel held back if someone just constantly told you that you needed to be both smart and pretty and nice all the time. You know it's not this thing where it’s like 'oh we're not going to read your blog because you're a woman' or 'you're not allowed to do such and such because you're a woman' it’s this, you know, its a much more, a much quieter slightly more insidious kind of sexism where you could respond to it by shrinking and going away uh, which I think a lot of people do, or you can respond to it by standing up and being a bitch and it and I mean that in the nicest sense of the term, um and I think, I hope that that's what we're encouraging people to do is to stand up point it out when it happens and I don't know, maybe, I don't know if you feel the same Carrie but the more I feel we point it out like, ' no that wasn't ok, you shouldn't say things like that, now let’s move forward' the better off we'll be.
(T-Approx-59:36)Carrie: "Well yeah, I mean by no means should we sort of label these people that may say silly offense things sometimes as jerks or as, you know, it’s happened, maybe you weren't aware of what you were really saying there or how it would be interpreted, let’s move on, we've learned from it, and lets all just try to..."
(T-Approx-59:59)Evan: "...And don't do it again..."
(T-Approx-1:00:00)Carrie: "Yeah, exactly."
(T-Approx-1:00:01)Steve: "Right, so there’s a softer type of bigotry but it still can have the impact of just making an unwelcome environment for women at skeptical events like that."
(T-Approx-1:00:15)Rebecca: "Exactly, yeah."
(T-Approx-1:00:17)Carrie "Yeah and I think we need to just keep talking about it. That's just the key, keep talking about it."
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WARNING:
This transcript is not a 100% accurate reflection of what was said.
The introduction by Steve in the beginning is missing and the first two questions by Steve towards the beginning of the interview are missing as well.
One of Bob's comments has been paraphrased.
This transcript has not yet been proofed by a thorough 2nd listening and correction.
There may be errors contained within this text as of the original date and time of posting [approx 10:45 AM, Saturday, August 15th] which, if cited as they are in their incorrect form, will distort the original meaning of the interviewee's argument and possibly render any counter-argument or defense based on the bad cite by forum users, invalid. In other words, take the time to briefly listen to the passages you want to pull from this reference and make sure that the transcript accurately reflects what was said in the actual interview.
Underlines and Bolds are all, obviously, mine and were added in this latest edit.
