Author Topic: Episode #238  (Read 9219 times)

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Offline seaotter

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Re: Episode #238
« Reply #15 on: Feb 06, 2010, 03:04:53 PM »
Well duh! That's why he was emphasising the hopping locomotion coming up over and over. His theory is that similar niches will spawn similar morphological solutions?
"There is no use trying," said Alice; "one can't believe impossible things." Lewis Carroll

Offline Trinoc

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Re: Episode #238
« Reply #16 on: Feb 06, 2010, 03:17:50 PM »
Like some others here, I followed Simon Conway Morris fairly well about convergent evolution. For land beings at least, aliens would need a form of locomotion and they would most likely need senses for light, sound, contact and most likely also smell and/or taste. I can't see any advantage to walking on more than two legs once you evolve beyond being a lump of meat holding itself off the ground, and once you have a good enough nervous system to handle balance on two limbs. Any but the smallest animals will most likely need active breathing of whatever counts for air on their planet, particularly with the energy needed to run a brain. I also can't see much advantage in having more than two ears or (despite my nickname) two eyes. These would need to be as close as possible to the brain and as far as possible off the ground for best coverage, and of course steerable to look/listen around. In other words a head at the top of the body.

Once Simon Conway Morris got onto the brain as antenna bit it seemed like a clear case of dualism. I think he may be suffering from the sort of cognitive dissonance that comes from trying to be honest to hard science and religion simultaneously (according to Wikipedia, SCM is a Christian who actively tries to reconcile science with religion, an unenviable task).

PS. Rebecca: your cycling problems aren't just due to driving on the left. In London we hunt down cyclists for sport. :)
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Offline Trinoc

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Re: Episode #238
« Reply #17 on: Feb 06, 2010, 03:23:22 PM »
What's new about the ideas that life may have started inside of clay-like minerals and/or around hydrothermal vents? I'm sure I've been reading about both of these ideas for years. It's always seemed clear to me that a simple "soup" would get stirred around too much by sea, weather, etc., to allow life to sort itself out. The chemicals need some sort of substrate to hang on to, while being able to move about enough to evolve new arrangements.

Hasn't the analogous idea been put forward for some time for possible life on somewhere like Europa (and now Enceladus)?
Do people who say "First World Problems" really think the only concern of people in developing countries is where the next bowl of rice is coming from?

Online werecow

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Re: Episode #238
« Reply #18 on: Feb 06, 2010, 03:33:51 PM »
I can't see any advantage to walking on more than two legs once you evolve beyond being a lump of meat holding itself off the ground

I can see two, actually; you're much harder to topple over, and your underbelly is not as exposed.
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Offline seaotter

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Re: Episode #238
« Reply #19 on: Feb 06, 2010, 03:34:39 PM »
What's new about the ideas that life may have started inside of clay-like minerals and/or around hydrothermal vents? I'm sure I've been reading about both of these ideas for years. It's always seemed clear to me that a simple "soup" would get stirred around too much by sea, weather, etc., to allow life to sort itself out. The chemicals need some sort of substrate to hang on to, while being able to move about enough to evolve new arrangements.

Hasn't the analogous idea been put forward for some time for possible life on somewhere like Europa (and now Enceladus)?

Nothing new about the idea. But a new article.
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Offline seaotter

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Re: Episode #238
« Reply #20 on: Feb 06, 2010, 03:42:10 PM »
I can't see any advantage to walking on more than two legs once you evolve beyond being a lump of meat holding itself off the ground

I can see two, actually; you're much harder to topple over, and your underbelly is not as exposed.


Don't tell the spiders there is no advatage to multiples of eyes over two. The prevalence of two eyes and tetrapod body plan has more to do with the raw material to work with from our fish ancestor than any advantages.
"There is no use trying," said Alice; "one can't believe impossible things." Lewis Carroll

Offline sparky

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Re: Episode #238
« Reply #22 on: Feb 06, 2010, 03:44:22 PM »
I can't see any advantage to walking on more than two legs once you evolve beyond being a lump of meat holding itself off the ground

I can see two, actually; you're much harder to topple over, and your underbelly is not as exposed.


Don't tell the spiders there is no advatage to multiples of eyes over two. The prevalence of two eyes and tetrapod body plan has more to do with the raw material to work with from our fish ancestor than any advantages.

I'm still disappointed at the lack of eyes in the back of my head.
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Offline seaotter

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Re: Episode #238
« Reply #23 on: Feb 06, 2010, 03:46:52 PM »
I can't see any advantage to walking on more than two legs once you evolve beyond being a lump of meat holding itself off the ground

I can see two, actually; you're much harder to topple over, and your underbelly is not as exposed.


Don't tell the spiders there is no advatage to multiples of eyes over two. The prevalence of two eyes and tetrapod body plan has more to do with the raw material to work with from our fish ancestor than any advantages.

I'm still disappointed at the lack of eyes in the back of my head.

I'm a teacher so I do have eyes in the back of my head.
"There is no use trying," said Alice; "one can't believe impossible things." Lewis Carroll

Offline Trinoc

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Re: Episode #238
« Reply #24 on: Feb 06, 2010, 03:48:56 PM »
I can't see any advantage to walking on more than two legs once you evolve beyond being a lump of meat holding itself off the ground
I can see two, actually; you're much harder to topple over, and your underbelly is not as exposed.

OK, but both things that become less important than the ability to react quickly and smartly once the brain is up to handling balance and forward planning. Also you need at least two limbs free for manipulating things. I suppose you could have two arms and four legs, but I never thought of a centaur as being very practical, and I can't think of anything (bigger than maybe an ant) that has evolved that way.

Seaotter: I see your point about spider/insect eyes, but while they use multiple sensors to make up an image rather than focusing on a single retina, I think they still only have two independent compound eyes to allow stereoscopic vision (or in some cases independently steerable vision in opposite (left/right) directions).
Do people who say "First World Problems" really think the only concern of people in developing countries is where the next bowl of rice is coming from?

Offline seaotter

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Re: Episode #238
« Reply #25 on: Feb 06, 2010, 03:55:52 PM »
I can't see any advantage to walking on more than two legs once you evolve beyond being a lump of meat holding itself off the ground
I can see two, actually; you're much harder to topple over, and your underbelly is not as exposed.

OK, but both things that become less important than the ability to react quickly and smartly once the brain is up to handling balance and forward planning. Also you need at least two limbs free for manipulating things. I suppose you could have two arms and four legs, but I never thought of a centaur as being very practical, and I can't think of anything (bigger than maybe an ant) that has evolved that way.

Seaotter: I see your point about spider/insect eyes, but while they use multiple sensors to make up an image rather than focusing on a single retina, I think they still only have two independent compound eyes to allow stereoscopic vision (or in some cases independently steerable vision in opposite (left/right) directions).

How common is binocular vision in creatures with two eyes? A lot of predators but there are tons of herbivores who would love some more eyes.
"There is no use trying," said Alice; "one can't believe impossible things." Lewis Carroll

Offline mddawson

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Re: Episode #238
« Reply #26 on: Feb 06, 2010, 04:19:59 PM »
Just a note to Steve - in Australia we never refer to a "Tasmanian Wolf", we either call it a Thylacine or Tasmanian Tiger (due to the stripes). 
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Offline GodHead

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Re: Episode #238
« Reply #27 on: Feb 06, 2010, 04:54:04 PM »
Quote
Once Simon Conway Morris got onto the brain as antenna bit it seemed like a clear case of dualism. I think he may be suffering from the sort of cognitive dissonance that comes from trying to be honest to hard science and religion simultaneously (according to Wikipedia, SCM is a Christian who actively tries to reconcile science with religion, an unenviable task).

I agree. It was quite disappointing once the interview got onto the subject of consciousness. He is clearly completely uneducated on the matters to which he was speaking, and the "brain as antenna" example was quite frankly embarrassing.

The professor should read up on modern neuroscience before he starts claiming to not be a dualist.

Offline Trinoc

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Re: Episode #238
« Reply #28 on: Feb 06, 2010, 05:48:08 PM »
Seaotter: I see your point about spider/insect eyes, but while they use multiple sensors to make up an image rather than focusing on a single retina, I think they still only have two independent compound eyes to allow stereoscopic vision (or in some cases independently steerable vision in opposite (left/right) directions).
How common is binocular vision in creatures with two eyes? A lot of predators but there are tons of herbivores who would love some more eyes.

I'm not sure. As far as I know most (all?) mammals are binocular, but a lot of other types of animals have independent eyes facing outwards. A lot of birds seem to have independent eyes, but owls are binocular.

Are there any naturalists out there who can summarise the types of vision available? Where a species has more than two eyes, how are they normally used?
Do people who say "First World Problems" really think the only concern of people in developing countries is where the next bowl of rice is coming from?

Offline Hanes

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Re: Episode #238
« Reply #29 on: Feb 06, 2010, 06:21:43 PM »
Nice B5 reference ;D

 

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