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Author Topic: Episode #238  (Read 3411 times)

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andrewclunn

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Re: Episode #238
« Reply #75 on: February 08, 2010, 03:37:21 PM »
The WTN is clearly Evan getting a new high score at an arcade version of Galaga.
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Trinoc

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Re: Episode #238
« Reply #76 on: February 08, 2010, 04:40:44 PM »
Chemical reactions and how about YOUR FREAKING BRAIN.

Nerve impulses travel about ten million times slower than electrical impulses. How likely is it that we could have gone directly from no computing at all to artificial neural networks without passing through discrete circuitry on the way?
« Last Edit: February 08, 2010, 04:42:36 PM by Trinoc »
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SimonW

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Re: Episode #238
« Reply #77 on: February 08, 2010, 05:41:01 PM »
As regards SCM Steve called him on the antenna but not enough I think.

The antenna is proposing something else apart from our brains, does he have evidence? I'm sure Steve has plenty of professional evidence of consciousness being altered by alteration to the brain. Sure it may be like a radio, but if you can't show me radio waves, or a transmitter, I get the feeling I'm being bullshitted.

He also seemed to chuck in argument from design at the end, Hume would turn in his grave, let alone Darwin. Okay he says he isn't a philosopher, but this is basic stuff. Skepdic article on design is excellent. Following Darrow we should consign argument from design to the "fallacies" list, or file under begging the question, unless there is something novel to the argument. In analogy to the antenna above, without evidence of a designer, or a of a design to show me I get the feeling I'm being bullshitted. Beyond the pantheistic wow isn't it wonderful to be alive (some of the time), aren't the stars pretty, there doesn't seem to be much substance.

http://www.skepdic.com/design.html

I think sociable insects are worth bearing in mind on the discussion of convergent evolution. How similar are you as a primate to a colony of ants? Sure there are convergent aspects, Ant fight wars (competition for resource). We share some basic anatomy with individual ants, but it is hard to separate that from common descent (i.e. they have the same genes controlling their body form as we do). Ants build accommodation. But in some big biological ways they are already so very divergent, some species are blind, some have two sorts of eyes, they have exoskeletons, six legs, antenna (not the mystical consciousness kind), as with many social insects fertility is not universal across individuals. They live in great colonies which we've come to mimic only by using technological aids. Remember ants and us share a relatively close common ancestor, and they have lived in exactly the same conditions as us. So we share a great deal of genetic material. Whilst I agree there are general forces for convergence, and there are solutions that evolution will hit on (optimality isn't necessary, if there is an evolutionary path from small beneficial adaption, to larger beneficial adaption evolution will fall down the easy path, even if the resulting solution is far from optimal - ask anyone creating genetic algorithms. So we might even meet aliens with eyes that are as lousy as the arrangement of our own eyes, or worse (perhaps it was a foggy/dark planet and better eyes weren't worth the investment).

These general forces have produced animals as similar as homosapiens and ants that farm fungus, and I'm not going out to the further reaches of animal evolution here, just one of the other big success stories by body weight. If we are just comparing life forms rather than animals, compare yourself to a slime mould. So whilst alien life could have striking similarities, I think also it could be strikingly more different from us than we are from slime moulds. Life we are likely to want to hold a conversation with on the other hand might much more similar to us, but so far we've spectacularly failed to have interesting conversations with most of the other intelligent species on earth, and it strikes me as highly likely, depending who finds who, that one species or the other may be much more intelligent than the other or have other reasons not to engage in a productive conversation.

I agree with the assessment that SCM is simply trying to make room for his religion.
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Mad_Scientist_Working

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Re: Episode #238
« Reply #78 on: February 08, 2010, 07:34:50 PM »
Chemical reactions and how about YOUR FREAKING BRAIN.

Nerve impulses travel about ten million times slower than electrical impulses. How likely is it that we could have gone directly from no computing at all to artificial neural networks without passing through discrete circuitry on the way?
Nerve pulses are electrical pulses which is why I said it was a stupid comparison because the three different forms of electrical charge carriers move at different speeds.  :obama: 
« Last Edit: February 08, 2010, 08:29:07 PM by Mad_Scientist_Working »
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stands2reason

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Re: Episode #238
« Reply #79 on: February 08, 2010, 07:42:14 PM »
Everything else the guest said at least made sense. What exactly leads him to believe in the nawt dualism as the source for consciousness? Where is the consciousness energy coming from, etc.

Evil Eye

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Re: Episode #238
« Reply #80 on: February 08, 2010, 08:23:09 PM »
I dunno nuttin'...

But I don't see "consciousness" as an empirical physical truth.

I see it rather as an emergent property of a physical brain.

No working brain... no consciousness. No consciousness.. nothing to argue.
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mandydax

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Re: Episode #238
« Reply #81 on: February 08, 2010, 09:33:29 PM »
Looks like I got beat to the punch again on WTN. I recognized the Slinky right away, though. I should really listen to this right away instead of waiting until Mondays.  :'(
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GodSlayer

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Re: Episode #238
« Reply #82 on: February 08, 2010, 10:21:56 PM »
As regards SCM Steve called him on the antenna but not enough I think.

The antenna is proposing something else apart from our brains, does he have evidence? I'm sure Steve has plenty of professional evidence of consciousness being altered by alteration to the brain.

I can alter the reception of my TV by fucking around with the bunny ears. He might say poor reception is analogous to a brain pathology--snap the antenna and you can't receive the transmission; your TV is practically in a coma.

the 'evidence' fits with both paradigms. This isn't a situation of one paradigm being unable to account for all the evidence at hand, but merely of which offers the more parsimonious and probable explanation.
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GodSlayer

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Re: Episode #238
« Reply #83 on: February 08, 2010, 10:24:28 PM »
I dunno nuttin'...

But I don't see "consciousness" as an empirical physical truth.

I see it rather as an emergent property of a physical brain.

No working brain... no consciousness. No consciousness.. nothing to argue.

is the wetness of water not 'an empirical physical truth'?
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Steven Novella

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Re: Episode #238
« Reply #84 on: February 09, 2010, 06:42:00 AM »
GodSlayer - the antenna analogy really breaks down, however, when you are familiar with modern neuroscience. We can changes people's personalities by altering predictable brain structures. We can remove abilities, and even create sensations.

To use the TV analogy, first we have to dispense with any notion of "changing channels" unless you believe in multiple personality disorder. But that aside, I cannot change the plot line of a story I am watching on TV by messing with the antenna or the electronics of the TV itself.

So while I agree that the brain as antenna is mostly useless because it adds an unnecessary step in the process of consciousness - I think we can also say as a hypothesis it can be discarded based upon disconfirming evidence. You can morph the antenna idea to accommodate all this evidence, but then that is an exercise in absurd special pleading.

The bottom line is - we have clearly established that the arrow of causation is from brain to consciousness, not consciousness to brain.
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Evil Eye

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Re: Episode #238
« Reply #85 on: February 09, 2010, 08:15:24 AM »
I dunno nuttin'...

But I don't see "consciousness" as an empirical physical truth.

I see it rather as an emergent property of a physical brain.

No working brain... no consciousness. No consciousness.. nothing to argue.

is the wetness of water not 'an empirical physical truth'?

No.

What is "wet" to a fish?

The properties of water are empirical, but "wetness" is relative.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2010, 08:17:26 AM by Evil Eye »
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GodSlayer

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Re: Episode #238
« Reply #86 on: February 09, 2010, 08:47:02 AM »
What is "wet" to a fish?

what is dark to a mole?...does that mean the sun isn't empirically light-emitt'y?
« Last Edit: February 09, 2010, 09:10:27 AM by GodSlayer »
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GodSlayer

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Re: Episode #238
« Reply #87 on: February 09, 2010, 09:09:05 AM »
GodSlayer - the antenna analogy really breaks down, however, when you are familiar with modern neuroscience. We can changes people's personalities by altering predictable brain structures. We can remove abilities, and even create sensations.
...
You can morph the antenna idea to accommodate all this evidence, but then that is an exercise in absurd special pleading.

yep, like all good nonsense, it doesn't break down, it merely demands greater absurdity to maintain itself:

the neuro-antenna is more complex than my TV's bunny ears. If personality is made up of complex transmitted elements, then, like a scrambled TV channel, you could receive part of the personality perfectly fine (like the audio), while the rest becomes non-functional (like the video component), and in stead of the actual video/personality is the pathology of snow (no video reception).

The bottom line is - we have clearly established that the arrow of causation is from brain to consciousness, not consciousness to brain.

What is established is only what can and can't happen to the reception by playing with the bunny ears, not what the status of the bunny ears is--the receiver of what the TV is capable of, or merely a limited remote control by which its capabilities are able to be altered.
We know that the arrow of causation is from bunny ears to TV, but we also know that there is a greater causal chain involved. The question remains the analogy to why the bunny ears are able to cause what they do. -- if the brain was an antenna, the broadcaster would need to be understood for us to have an explanation; if it is not, we need to understand how the broadcaster/producer can exist within the brain/TV set itself--we don't yet have that established.

p.s.
the proposition that "the arrow of causation is from brain to consciousness, not consciousness to brain" is epiphenominalism. Is that what you meant to assert?
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Trinoc

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Re: Episode #238
« Reply #88 on: February 09, 2010, 09:25:07 AM »
What is "wet" to a fish?

That which it ceases to experience if it's left out of water for a length of time?

The point being: something can equally well be defined by its absence as by its presence.
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Trinoc

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Re: Episode #238
« Reply #89 on: February 09, 2010, 09:26:56 AM »
the proposition that "the arrow of causation is from brain to consciousness, not consciousness to brain" is epiphenominalism. Is that what you meant to assert?

First rule of philosophy: when all else fails, just give something a name and act as if that settles the matter.
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