Author Topic: Episode #263  (Read 4156 times)

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Offline Harradine

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Re: Episode #263
« Reply #75 on: Aug 06, 2010, 09:22:41 PM »
You are not depressing..

Offline Trinoc

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Re: Episode #263
« Reply #76 on: Aug 07, 2010, 05:18:08 AM »
According to this link, the calories on food labels are actually based on the estimated amount of energy available, not the total energy from burning the food to ash (contrary to what someone said earlier). This seems to make a lot more sense.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_energy#Nutrition_Labels
Do people who say "First World Problems" really think the only concern of people in developing countries is where the next bowl of rice is coming from?

Offline pandamonium

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Re: Episode #263
« Reply #77 on: Aug 07, 2010, 05:26:56 AM »
According to this link, the calories on food labels are actually based on the estimated amount of energy available, not the total energy from burning the food to ash (contrary to what someone said earlier). This seems to make a lot more sense.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_energy#Nutrition_Labels


ok, i feel better about that then.

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Offline quirk3k

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Re: Episode #263
« Reply #78 on: Aug 07, 2010, 08:24:39 PM »
According to this link, the calories on food labels are actually based on the estimated amount of energy available, not the total energy from burning the food to ash (contrary to what someone said earlier). This seems to make a lot more sense.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_energy#Nutrition_Labels


This still doesn't address the point that how the food is processed effects the absorption rate.
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Offline Trinoc

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Re: Episode #263
« Reply #79 on: Aug 08, 2010, 04:53:50 AM »
According to this link, the calories on food labels are actually based on the estimated amount of energy available, not the total energy from burning the food to ash (contrary to what someone said earlier). This seems to make a lot more sense.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_energy#Nutrition_Labels
This still doesn't address the point that how the food is processed effects the absorption rate.

I wasn't addressing that question. I just wanted to get that confusion out of the way so that we were comparing like with like when counting calories.

Presumably a given amount of calories will contribute the same amount to obesity regardless of how quickly they are absorbed (provided that they are absorbed at all, hence the point about usable calories versus the total). Speed of absorption may affect how much we choose to eat, though. It's not clear to me whether faster absorption would cause one to eat more or less. If the aim is to eat until the stomach feels full, then faster digestion would result in eating more. If the aim is to eat until the blood sugar level is up to normal so you feel energetic, then faster digestion would result in eating less.

Maybe most of us respond to a combination of these things, with those who stay thin leaning towards the blood sugar trigger, and those who get fat leaning towards the eat-until-full trigger. That could explain why I stay relatively thin regardless of whether I eat "healthy" or "processed" food, and the only thing that seems to affect my weight is "real" exercise ... that is actually doing something like work on the house or garden, not just walking for the sake of it or exercising on a machine.
Do people who say "First World Problems" really think the only concern of people in developing countries is where the next bowl of rice is coming from?

Offline Kwisatz Haderach

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Re: Episode #263
« Reply #80 on: Aug 08, 2010, 05:48:45 AM »
According to this link, the calories on food labels are actually based on the estimated amount of energy available, not the total energy from burning the food to ash (contrary to what someone said earlier). This seems to make a lot more sense.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_energy#Nutrition_Labels


This still doesn't address the point that how the food is processed effects the absorption rate.


If the way the food was processed effected the absorption rate, then that would change the amount of energy available, and therefore be accounted for (according to that link).

Offline Trinoc

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Re: Episode #263
« Reply #81 on: Aug 08, 2010, 06:02:19 AM »
According to this link, the calories on food labels are actually based on the estimated amount of energy available, not the total energy from burning the food to ash (contrary to what someone said earlier). This seems to make a lot more sense.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_energy#Nutrition_Labels
This still doesn't address the point that how the food is processed effects the absorption rate.
If the way the food was processed effected the absorption rate, then that would change the amount of energy available, and therefore be accounted for (according to that link).

The labelling would be affected by the proportion of calories that are absorbed, but not by the rate (speed) at which they are absorbed.

Maybe labels should also include an indication of the speed of absorption. People who want energy fast, e.g. for something athletic, might want to choose quickly absorbed foods, whereas people with sedentary lives might be better with slowly absorbed ones.
Do people who say "First World Problems" really think the only concern of people in developing countries is where the next bowl of rice is coming from?

Offline Caffiene

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Re: Episode #263
« Reply #82 on: Aug 08, 2010, 09:05:14 AM »
Maybe im missing something, but where in that link does it say that labeling takes the absorption into account?

All I can see is that the labeling is done by using chemical tests to determine the constituents, and then the calories of the constituents are estimated using standardised energy densities for those constituents.
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Offline quirk3k

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Re: Episode #263
« Reply #83 on: Aug 08, 2010, 10:05:06 AM »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_energy#Nutrition_Labels
This still doesn't address the point that how the food is processed effects the absorption rate.

I wasn't addressing that question. I just wanted to get that confusion out of the way so that we were comparing like with like when counting calories.

Presumably a given amount of calories will contribute the same amount to obesity regardless of how quickly they are absorbed (provided that they are absorbed at all, hence the point about usable calories versus the total). Speed of absorption may affect how much we choose to eat, though. It's not clear to me whether faster absorption would cause one to eat more or less. If the aim is to eat until the stomach feels full, then faster digestion would result in eating more. If the aim is to eat until the blood sugar level is up to normal so you feel energetic, then faster digestion would result in eating less.


Sorry, I didn't phrase that well at all. What I meant was net energy absorption not absorption rate.

In the example of the air puffed rat food, the rat's body was able to net more energy in the air puffed food then the solid food. The same weight of food and same content of food but different processing resulted in different amounts of energy available to the rat.
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Offline Trinoc

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Re: Episode #263
« Reply #84 on: Aug 08, 2010, 11:39:24 AM »
Maybe im missing something, but where in that link does it say that labeling takes the absorption into account?

Quote
The amount of food energy associated with a particular food could be measured by completely burning the dried food in a bomb calorimeter, a method known as direct calorimetry.[5]  However, the values given on food labels are not determined this way, because it overestimates the amount of fuel that actually enters the blood through digestion because it also burns the indigestible dietary fiber  so that not all food eaten is actually absorbed by the body (fecal losses). Instead, standardized chemical tests or an analysis of the recipe using reference tables for common ingredients[6] are used to estimate the product's digestible constituents (protein, carbohydrate, fat, etc.). These results are then converted into an equivalent energy value based on a standardized table of energy densities.[7][8]
Do people who say "First World Problems" really think the only concern of people in developing countries is where the next bowl of rice is coming from?

Offline Cosmolosopher

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Re: Episode #263
« Reply #85 on: Aug 09, 2010, 11:53:48 AM »
After hearing the mangling of cosmology in many episodes, I had to respond to this one.

Bob describes "the Big Bang" as "a titanic space-time explosion" that "has successfully explained a lot of observed phenomena". This is simply not correct.

What we have come to know as the Big Bang theory does not actually include what we might call a Big Bang event. The theory is about the expansion of spacetime over the history of the universe, but it assumes initial conditions. While we can take this model and extrapolate backwards from these initial conditions, we reach beyond trusted physics and, with some additional assumptions, we reach a singularity, a place in the mathematics of our theory where we do not have an adequate physical description of the relevant system. It should be noted that none of the successes of contemporary cosmology lie in the use of this singularity.

For many years, opponents of the Big Bang theory have attempted to saddle the theory with this singularity as part of attempts to discredit the theory. It is unfortunate that those with a new model to propose are jumping on this bandwagon. I suspect that this language attracts the attention of many in the popular science press, but I feel it contributes to misinformation about cosmology. (Much like the jump to the term "dark energy" by researchers at the end of the 90s.)

In the defense of your podcast, however, you did point to the likely fatal problem with Shu's work: it cannot fully account for the background radiation. This is a very serious problem. The current standard cosmological model can not only incorporate the type Ia supernovae observations, it also uses them to make measurements of dark energy density that are backed up by independent measurements of dark energy density from the details of the background radiation. Shu's model has to meet a high bar: it not only has to produce a background radiation, it also has to show why it should fool us into measuring an amount of dark energy consistent with that measured from the type Ia supernovae. (If it can do this, then we can move on to a number of other independent tests with matching measurement results that the standard cosmological model fits quite well.)

Select References

For information on the basics of the standard cosmological model, I recommend Chapter 1 of PJE Peebles, Principles of Physical Cosmology. A briefer and somewhat more widely accessible source is the still excellent Nature review article by Peebles, Schramm, Turner, and Kron, "The case for the relativistic hot Big Bang cosmology" (Vol. 352, 29 Aug 1991; also: http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1991Natur.352..769P ).

The history of cosmology, along with the history of the "Big Bang" term are given a thorough account in Helge Cragh, Cosmology and Controversy.

The power of using both the supernovae observations and the background radiation observations is discussed in the epilogue to the revised edition of Robert Kirshnmer's book, The Extravagant Universe. (The book is a great history of the recent supernovae observations.)

Offline hethatwas

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Re: Episode #263
« Reply #86 on: Aug 10, 2010, 12:05:43 AM »
Your discussion on the podcast got me thinking about shows that
are skeptical. Although you were talking about a "reality" style show i
as reminded of a comedy that i watched a while back. It's a fictional
Japaneses show called "Trick" about the daughter of a magician that
travels with a professor discrediting various quacks and mystics.
It's live action and won't even get brought to the  English speaking
world but there is a Fan-made Subtitling out there for the first season
if you know where to look. Anyways, though it was neat because its not a
boring lecture show but skepticism hidden behind silly comedy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trick_(TV_series)

Offline fascination

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Re: Episode #263
« Reply #87 on: Sep 19, 2010, 01:32:35 PM »
Dear Dr. Steve,

You mention research of evidence based guidelines vs. own experience in treatment guidelines. I'd be grateful for any reference to where to find the rearch or at least year of publication.

Otherwise keep up the good work.

- fascination