Author Topic: Raw Milk  (Read 12179 times)

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Offline Belgarath

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Re: Raw Milk
« Reply #300 on: Apr 20, 2012, 03:45:17 PM »
I would never state that ALL raw milk is unsafe because certainly you could do an inordinate amount of testing to a batch of raw milk to ensure it is safe, but that's definitely not cost effective.

In NZ, all milk taken to the milk coops is raw and all milk is tested before it leaves the farm.  This has been quite cost effective here and lets me feel comfortable about drinking unpasturised milk. 

I get the idea that some on this forum think that raw milk must come from shit covered cows, in a dirty barn and stored in unwashed containers.
Yeah, I grew up on it straight out of the vat in NZ and never had a problem.

My uncle Gary has driven his entire life without a seatbelt and he's never had an accident.


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Offline Plastique

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Re: Raw Milk
« Reply #301 on: Apr 20, 2012, 03:53:41 PM »
I would never state that ALL raw milk is unsafe because certainly you could do an inordinate amount of testing to a batch of raw milk to ensure it is safe, but that's definitely not cost effective.

In NZ, all milk taken to the milk coops is raw and all milk is tested before it leaves the farm.  This has been quite cost effective here and lets me feel comfortable about drinking unpasturised milk. 

I get the idea that some on this forum think that raw milk must come from shit covered cows, in a dirty barn and stored in unwashed containers.
Yeah, I grew up on it straight out of the vat in NZ and never had a problem.

My uncle Gary has driven his entire life without a seatbelt and he's never had an accident.
Whoa, girl, ease up! I wasn't making any sweeping claims about anything, and if you detected a tacit endorsement of raw milk, you were mistaken.

Offline lonely moa

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Re: Raw Milk
« Reply #302 on: Apr 21, 2012, 12:22:35 AM »

I don't get that impression, however I do believe that testing at the farm isn't enough. 

Why not?  Don't you think the industry is competent to do this?  Only annecdotal, of course, but it seems to work well.
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Offline Belgarath

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Re: Raw Milk
« Reply #303 on: Apr 21, 2012, 10:57:09 AM »

I don't get that impression, however I do believe that testing at the farm isn't enough. 

Why not?  Don't you think the industry is competent to do this?  Only annecdotal, of course, but it seems to work well.

Simply put, if you're selling milk, there are a lot of things that can happen to it between the farm and the store.  Unless you're advocating going back to some agrarian utopia where we all walk to the farm and buy the milk directly from the farm, which is COMPLETELY impractical, there are other places where contamination can be introduced.


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Offline lonely moa

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Re: Raw Milk
« Reply #304 on: Apr 21, 2012, 01:54:09 PM »

I don't get that impression, however I do believe that testing at the farm isn't enough. 

Why not?  Don't you think the industry is competent to do this?  Only annecdotal, of course, but it seems to work well.

Simply put, if you're selling milk, there are a lot of things that can happen to it between the farm and the store.  Unless you're advocating going back to some agrarian utopia where we all walk to the farm and buy the milk directly from the farm, which is COMPLETELY impractical, there are other places where contamination can be introduced.

"COMPLETELY impractical"  well,  not completely.  lots do it and it works well.  In stream contamination of milk would be orders of magnitude less likely than it is in vegetables or fast food.
“Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so”

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Offline Belgarath

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Re: Raw Milk
« Reply #305 on: Apr 21, 2012, 02:11:08 PM »
So what would change your opinion on this?

Mine would completely turn on a dime if you could show me that 'raw milk' can be purchased from a store with the equivalent level of safety and cost as pasteurized milk.

I don't think there's any evidence that 'raw milk' is better for you.

Please read what I say, not what you choose to imagine I meant to say.
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Re: Raw Milk
« Reply #306 on: Apr 21, 2012, 02:20:23 PM »
      If only science could answer the simple question.  Is raw milk superior to cooked milk?

     But hell, you start making science important in stuff like that, next thing will be double blind experiments in regards to all kinds of food issues.  Can't have that.   It's like saying one food is better than another.  Can you imagine?
The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views... which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.

Offline lonely moa

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Re: Raw Milk
« Reply #307 on: Apr 21, 2012, 09:42:31 PM »
“Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so”

Bertrand Russell

Offline Belgarath

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Re: Raw Milk
« Reply #308 on: Apr 21, 2012, 10:07:30 PM »
I don't think there's any evidence that 'raw milk' is better for you.


I do.

http://www.jacionline.org/article/S0091-6749(11)01234-6/abstract


Read it.  The conclusion is particularly interesting:

Quote
The findings suggest that the protective effect of raw milk consumption on asthma might be associated with the whey protein fraction of milk.


Seems fairly ambiguous to me, and it also looks like they didn't control for a lot of OTHER factors which could account for this. 

Also, lets look at what one of the researchers said:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/09/13/us-kids-raw-milk-idUSTRE78C75O20110913

Further, lets look at what the FDA/CDC says?

http://www.fda.gov/Food/ResourcesForYou/Consumers/ucm079516.htm

Even after that study.

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Re: Raw Milk
« Reply #309 on: Apr 21, 2012, 10:39:26 PM »
Quote
The findings suggest that the protective effect of raw milk consumption on asthma might be associated with the whey protein fraction of milk.


     Like so many things food related, the bias of some people is extremely obvious. I read that as researchers looking for the cause of something.  It took seconds to confirm that what I thought is indeed the truth of the matter.

Quote
The researchers discovered that children who drank farm milk were much less likely to suffer from hayfever and asthma.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/05/070510093349.htm

    So we have researchers who know that a certain population suffers less from hayfever and asthma.  They were trying to discover if raw milk is why.

Quote
Farm milk consumption has been identified as an exposure that might contribute to the protective effect of farm life on childhood asthma and allergies. The mechanism of action and the role of particular constituents of farm milk, however, are not yet clear.


     It seems they were wanting to know if the natural raw milk (and products made from it) contributes to better health.  Certainly they weren't trying to see if it was a factor in poor health.

      It's one of those terrible situations where science isn't the arbitrator of truth. And issues become complicated very fast.  The safety of raw milk is one issue.  The health effects are another. 

     But only some complete tool could think milk is somehow "better for you" after being cooked.  That isn't even a real question.  If we were trying to prove that heated milk was "better" we would simply take a bunch of newborn cows, let half of them have raw milk, and feed the other half cooked milk, and compare what happens.  (make it double blind for good measure)

      That's how science decides truth.  Not because somebody declares something to be true.  OK in most cases, but not when there is an economic factor involved. (think smoking, alcohol, or any other lucrative field where people sell something for humans to consume)

Turning again to the Science Daily article

Quote
The researchers discovered that children who drank farm milk were much less likely to suffer from hayfever and asthma.

Lower levels of diagnosed asthma were also observed for all farm-produced dairy products and eating farm eggs also provided protection against hayfever. However, these foods only provided increased protection when the children also drank unpasteurised farm milk -- not in isolation.

None of the farm products had any effect on eczema levels. "All the children drinking unpasteurised farm milk and eating other farm-related dairy products showed the same level of protection against asthma and allergies, regardless of whether they were living on a farm or not" says lead author Marco Waser, a doctor in natural sciences from the Institute of Social and Preventative Medicine at the University of Basel, Switzerland.

"This is an important finding as it rules out other protective factors that farm life may provide, such as exposure to microbial compounds in animal shed and farm homes. For example, earlier studies have shown that farm children are less likely to be affected by pollen. "Our research showed that the children who enjoyed the best protection from asthma and allergies had been drinking farm milk since their first year of life."



     Oops.  I should have read the whole thing before my earlier commentary.  Of course this is where the true believer (raw milk bad, cooked milk good) will ignore all scientific evidence, because they alone know the truth.


     Of course the issue of contamination is separate from the mysterious health benefits.  Not that such a scientific matter will matter.


 
The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views... which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.

Offline Chew

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Re: Raw Milk
« Reply #310 on: Apr 21, 2012, 10:56:10 PM »
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/05/070510093349.htm


Quote from:  the linked article
About half of the parents who told researchers that their child regularly drank farm milk said that they did not boil the milk before giving it to them. The protective results were the same, regardless of whether milk was boiled or not.


D'oh!
"It is difficult to say what truth is, but sometimes it is easy to recognize falsehood." -Albert Einstein

Offline lonely moa

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Re: Raw Milk
« Reply #311 on: Apr 22, 2012, 12:17:58 AM »
Read the next paragraph.
“Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so”

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Offline Chew

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Re: Raw Milk
« Reply #312 on: Apr 22, 2012, 01:50:49 AM »
I read the whole thing. I read this part twice:
Quote
"But despite our findings, we cannot recommend consumption of raw farm milk as a preventative measure against asthma and allergies."


If the parents who said they boiled the milk but didn't and if boiling the milk eliminated the protective effect then the boiled milk group would have shown a marked decline. It did not. Unless they all lied. So boiling and not makes no difference.

The original study says
Quote
The present study does not allow evaluating the effect
of pasteurized vs. raw milk consumption because no
objective confirmation of the raw milk status of the farm
milk samples was available. Parental answers to a question
on consumption of boiled vs. raw farm milk are likely
to be biased due to the social desirability of responses
because raw milk consumption is not recommended
especially for young children. About half of the parents
indicated that they usually did not boil the milk before
consumption but no differential effects were observed
between those boiling and those not boiling the milk. This
might be a result of biased parental answers or may
indicate that pasteurization is not of key importance
because compounds other than microbes may play a role.
This interpretation is supported by an analysis of Swiss
alpine farm milk from exclusively grass-fed cows showing
a higher content of omega-3 fatty acids than milk from
cows fed conserved grass such as silage
[the rest at the link, page 8.]
"It is difficult to say what truth is, but sometimes it is easy to recognize falsehood." -Albert Einstein

Offline Belgarath

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Re: Raw Milk
« Reply #313 on: Apr 22, 2012, 10:28:30 AM »

Please read what I say, not what you choose to imagine I meant to say.
Please don’t try to argue about statements I never made.
- Dr. Harriet Hall

Offline Halleyscomet/Wakefield

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Re: Raw Milk
« Reply #314 on: Apr 22, 2012, 08:50:27 PM »

I don't get that impression, however I do believe that testing at the farm isn't enough. 


Why not?  Don't you think the industry is competent to do this?  Only annecdotal, of course, but it seems to work well.


It may seem to work well, but the reality is that it doens't work at all:

Raw Milk Sends 3 to Hospital in Oregon: 2 Children Develop Hemolytic Uremic Syndrome

http://vitals.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/02/28/10530872-raw-milk-a-raw-deal-cdc-says
Quote
The rate of food-poisoning outbreaks caused by unpasteurized, or raw, milk and dairy products is 150 times greater than outbreaks linked to pasteurized milk, according to new research.


Raw Milk Food Poisoning in Missouri Associated With HUS; Nine Illnesses

http://foodpoisoningbulletin.com/2012/raw-milk-e-coli-outbreak-sickens-12-in-missouri/

http://www.marlerclark.com/missouri-raw-milk-ecoli-outbreak/

One of my earlier posts in this thread addressed this, but raw milk is responsible for the vast majority of milk based food poisoning incidents. The raw oyster comparison is nonsense, in part because raw oysters are handled carefully, but the idiots drinking raw milk often treat it the same way they treat pasteurized milk, giving the pathogenic bacteria often infesting it plenty of opportunity to bloom.
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