Poll

Do you think that a Libertarianism ghetto (a la AGW) would clean up the politics section?

Yes, please.
Yes, but unneccessary.
No, never.
No, not yet.
Other: please explain

Author Topic: Is it maybe time to make a Libertarianism ghetto?  (Read 3996 times)

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Online MikeHz

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Re: Is it maybe time to make a Libertarianism ghetto?
« Reply #75 on: August 30, 2011, 06:41:28 PM »
There is a strong undercurrent of libertarianism in skepticism, which admittedly I don't quite get, but it's there, and it's not like it's just the one guy espousing things here.

The skeptical aspect comes into play when some people evoke government as the knee-jerk solution to every problem. "We;ll just have government handle it, and everything will be fine." "Why, there outta be a law." As though politicians possess some special magic power to make good things happen. The theory seems to be that average people are greedy bastards, but somehow suddenly grow into paragons of public virtue when elected to office. Sorry--but I am myself skeptical of this.
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Offline Jeremy's Sea

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Re: Is it maybe time to make a Libertarianism ghetto?
« Reply #76 on: August 30, 2011, 06:45:44 PM »
There is a strong undercurrent of libertarianism in skepticism, which admittedly I don't quite get, but it's there, and it's not like it's just the one guy espousing things here.

The skeptical aspect comes into play when some people evoke government as the knee-jerk solution to every problem. "We;ll just have government handle it, and everything will be fine." "Why, there outta be a law." As though politicians possess some special magic power to make good things happen. The theory seems to be that average people are greedy bastards, but somehow suddenly grow into paragons of public virtue when elected to office. Sorry--but I am myself skeptical of this.
The skeptical aspect comes into play when some people evoke free market as the knee-jerk solution to every problem. "We;ll just have the free market handle it, and everything will be fine." "Why, there outta be no law." As though businesses possess some special magic power to make good things happen. The theory seems to be that average people are greedy bastards, but somehow suddenly grow into paragons of public virtue when they form unregulated businesses. Sorry--but I am myself skeptical of this.  ;D
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Offline DRmeg378

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Re: Is it maybe time to make a Libertarianism ghetto?
« Reply #77 on: August 30, 2011, 06:50:59 PM »
This is not the point of this thread. And I am not a libertarian. But there is reason to believe that in most arenas, self-interest does lead to the emergence of something close to an optimum (admittedly an optimum defined with a weird notion of optimality). The result breaks down when prices don't reflect actual costs (as in, the social cost of a knitted sweater can be argued to be exactly the same as the market cost, whereas the social cost of oil extracted from the Arctic can be argued to be higher than it's market cost). The problem is what to do there. There are reasons to believe that governments won't behave optimally (they typically would have huge information costs, even if they had the best intentions), and reasons to believe that businesses wouldn't behave socially optimally (duh). So neither side is a given, and perhaps the skeptical answer would be that we are very limited in how optimal our social arrangements will be. This is obviously my own position, because I R moar SkAptik than u.
"I try not to think with my gut. If I'm serious about understanding the world, thinking with anything besides my brain, as tempting as that may be, is likely to get me into trouble. Really, it's okay to reserve judgment until the evidence is in." - Carl Sagan

Offline Jeremy's Sea

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Re: Is it maybe time to make a Libertarianism ghetto?
« Reply #78 on: August 30, 2011, 06:55:11 PM »
Sorry, I wasn't listening meg, cause you sounded very libertarian.
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Offline uolj

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Re: Is it maybe time to make a Libertarianism ghetto?
« Reply #79 on: August 30, 2011, 06:57:07 PM »
B Side, Emergent Systems, uolj, and even Citizen Skeptic to a lesser degree walk the libertarian line from time to time...

...

... Did andrew even try to defend Paul's lack of evolutionitis? I could have sworn that was all B SIDE and uolj).

* uolj scratches his head.

I think I need to post my opinions more.



;)

Online Johnny Slick

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Re: Is it maybe time to make a Libertarianism ghetto?
« Reply #80 on: August 30, 2011, 06:59:03 PM »
Well, I hate you so you must be libertarian.  >:(

(just kidding. I think I somehow had you mixed up with MikeHz, who was nice enough to post in this thread and remind me)
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Offline uolj

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Re: Is it maybe time to make a Libertarianism ghetto?
« Reply #81 on: August 30, 2011, 07:23:21 PM »
Although I guess I have sort of defended a libertarian viewpoint a few times. But that's more of me seeing flaws in the arguments against the viewpoint rather than finding the viewpoint itself convincing.

I do see a decent amount of what I'd consider to be unnecessary libertarianism bashing and dismissiveness (although not anywhere near what Andrew feels). For me personally that's a bummer since I generally prefer to hear the full reason why something is wrong even if people think it should be obvious. I don't think a libertarian ghetto would help with that, though.

In fact, the bulk of the disagreements seem to be progressive versus libertarian, so if you put any discussion of a libertarian viewpoint into a ghetto then the Politics section would by 90% backslapping, no?

Online Johnny Slick

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Re: Is it maybe time to make a Libertarianism ghetto?
« Reply #82 on: August 30, 2011, 07:59:27 PM »
Yeah, that's a good point too. I don't always agree with libertarian viewpoints but when I do I accidentally the whole thing. Wait, what? Anyway, debate = good. Having a bunch of libs argue over who is the better lib gets boring.
"Ignorance is like a delicate exotic fruit; touch it and the bloom is gone." - Oscar Wilde

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Offline jaypee

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Re: Is it maybe time to make a Libertarianism ghetto?
« Reply #83 on: August 31, 2011, 08:50:33 AM »
Yeah, that's a good point too. I don't always agree with libertarian viewpoints but when I do I accidentally the whole thing. Wait, what? Anyway, debate = good. Having a bunch of libs argue over who is the better lib gets boring.

I'm better than you.

At any rate, for what it's worth I guess I'm a "left libertarian". At least that's what random internet personality surveys have told me about myself, and the internet is always right. 

ETA: Which just goes to show you how useless such labeling is. I agree with libertarian economic policy exactly 0% of the time, and yet I'm also against the government throwing large sums of money at things without tracking how efficacious their efforts have been and adjusting or eliminating programs. Also, I love freedom. I put freedom sauce all over everything. I bathe in freedom sauce, and when the dadgum gummint tries infiltrating in my liberties I get all CAPSRAGE.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2011, 08:55:20 AM by jaypee »
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Online seaotter

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Re: Is it maybe time to make a Libertarianism ghetto?
« Reply #84 on: August 31, 2011, 09:03:18 AM »
You know that survey should tell the libertarian dogmatists somthing. You might want to reconsider your position when so many people think youre positions are extreme to the point of unreality and yet most of us are libertarian leaning.
"There is no use trying," said Alice; "one can't believe impossible things." Lewis Carroll

Offline Belgarath

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Re: Is it maybe time to make a Libertarianism ghetto?
« Reply #85 on: August 31, 2011, 09:06:24 AM »
You know that survey should tell the libertarian dogmatists somthing. You might want to reconsider your position when so many people think youre positions are extreme to the point of unreality and yet most of us are libertarian leaning.

Cause, you know, 2 billion Catholics can't be wrong, right?

'To expect sense from two mentalities with such extreme view points is not logical' - Spock from 'Let That Be Your Last Battlefield'


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Re: Is it maybe time to make a Libertarianism ghetto?
« Reply #86 on: August 31, 2011, 09:11:54 AM »
Sure, but the Catholics who demand no contraception might take another look at the issue in light of all the other Catholics who ignore that position in favor of common sense.
"There is no use trying," said Alice; "one can't believe impossible things." Lewis Carroll

Offline Kwisatz Haderach

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Re: Is it maybe time to make a Libertarianism ghetto?
« Reply #87 on: August 31, 2011, 11:09:40 AM »
When making a decision, please ignore a certain person who hates libertarians and is now trying to bring up libertarianism in as many threads as possible to push for this.

http://sguforums.com/index.php/topic,35641.msg973385.html#msg973385

http://sguforums.com/index.php/topic,35458.msg973160.html#msg973160

http://sguforums.com/index.php/topic,35608.msg973477.html#msg973477

Really, this is just low.


Seriously?  I always saw JS as all about the lolz.  Sometimes there might be a point in his joke, but he's really just about making jokes.  Like the board's own Jon Stewart.

Online seaotter

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Re: Is it maybe time to make a Libertarianism ghetto?
« Reply #88 on: August 31, 2011, 11:17:03 AM »
Well, if you are bringing a subject up over and over with someone who has repeatedly told you to drop it then you are just being an ass.
"There is no use trying," said Alice; "one can't believe impossible things." Lewis Carroll

Offline Belgarath

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Re: Is it maybe time to make a Libertarianism ghetto?
« Reply #89 on: August 31, 2011, 11:17:57 AM »

Seriously?  I always saw JS as all about the lolz.  Sometimes there might be a point in his joke, but he's really just about making jokes.  Like the board's own Jon Stewart.

Except for far far less funny....
'To expect sense from two mentalities with such extreme view points is not logical' - Spock from 'Let That Be Your Last Battlefield'