Author Topic: Science Blunders  (Read 10608 times)

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Offline Trinoc

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Re: Science Blunders
« Reply #75 on: May 10, 2012, 07:58:49 AM »
I think a temperance preacher just walked into the bar. I'm sure we'd all like to help him out, as soon as we find out which way he came in.
Do people who say "First World Problems" really think the only concern of people in developing countries is where the next bowl of rice is coming from?

Offline Skulker

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Re: Science Blunders
« Reply #76 on: May 10, 2012, 08:51:11 AM »
I think a temperance preacher just walked into the bar. I'm sure we'd all like to help him out, as soon as we find out which way he came in.
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Offline werecow

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Re: Science Blunders
« Reply #77 on: May 12, 2012, 02:05:35 PM »
Hi Steve,
You could start with anthropogenic global warming.  Most legitimate research refutes IPCC claims in that they consistently lack scientific rigor and fail in every prediction made to date.  The whole IPCC propaganda machine will survive only as memory and an example of how science is not to be done - not the least of which is by a so called consensus which never existed. 

Really? Last time I checked, there were statements to the contrary by (at least) 32 academies of science, the InterAcademy Council, the European Academy of Sciences and Arts, the International Council of Academies of Engineering and Technological Sciences, the Network of African Science Academies, the Royal Societies of New Zealand and the United Kingdom, the National Research Council, the American Association for the Advancement of Science, the American Geophysical Union, the American Society of Agronomy, Crop Science Society of America, and Soil Science Society of America, the European Federation of Geologists, the European Geosciences Union, the Geological Society of America, the Geological Society of London, the International Union of Geodesy and Geophysics, the National Association of Geoscience Teachers, the American Meteorological Society, the Australian Meteorological and Oceanographic Society, the Canadian Foundation for Climate and Atmospheric Sciences, the Canadian Meteorological and Oceanographic Society, the UK's Royal Meteorological Society, the World Meteorological Organization, The KNMI (Royal Dutch Meteorological Institute), the American Quaternary Association, the International Union for Quaternary Research, the American Association of Wildlife Veterinarians, the American Institute of Biological Sciences, the American Society for Microbiology, the Australian Coral Reef Society, the UK's Institute of Biology, the Society of American Foresters, The Wildlife Society, the American Medical Association, the World Health Organization, the Australian Medical Association, the American Astronomical Society, the American Statistical Association, the International Association for Great Lakes Research, and many others. Oh, and yes, NASA, of course, let's not forget that one, since you seem to think it should be taken seriously on this issue (I don't disagree). Right now there are 0 scientific bodies of any standing who take the position that climate change is not real, or not man made. The American Association of Petroleum Geologists was the last major science body to take that stance, and now they are one of only a handful to take a wishy-washy semi neutral position on the issue. Beyond that, there is social science research by people like Doran, who showed that the level of consensus on anthropogenic climate change rises from 60% to 97% as one focuses in from general scientists to more and more climate-specialized researchers. Or Anderegg, who showed that
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97–98% of the climate researchers most actively publishing in the field support the tenets of ACC outlined by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, and (ii) the relative climate expertise and scientific prominence of the researchers unconvinced of ACC are substantially below that of the convinced researchers.
And then there is Oreskes (2004/2005) who showed that out of all research with the subject 'global climate change' published in mainstream peer reviewed journals between 1993 and 2003, 75% took the mainstream position (that climate change is real and anthropogenic in origin), while 25% simply did not comment either way (because it wasn't relevant to their research).

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Just to name one example you might consider the 50 NASA scientist and astronauts who wrote:
“claims by NASA and GISS, that man-made carbon dioxide is having a catastrophic impact on global climate change are not substantiated, especially when considering thousands of years of empirical data. With hundreds of well-known climate scientists and tens of thousands of other scientists publicly declaring their disbelief in the catastrophic forecasts, coming particularly from the GISS leadership, it is clear that the science is NOT settled.”
See: http://www.libertariannews.org/2012/04/11/nearly-50-nasa-scientists-and-astronauts-issue-letter-rejecting-nasas-stance-on-global-warming/


While I have great respect for astronauts, you have got to be joking if you think they even remotely qualify as climate experts. As for "NASA scientists", that can be anything from an engineer to an astrobiologist. Asking non-expert scientists about this issue is no more useful than asking lawyers to comment on the validity of evolutionary theory. That's why the research I quoted above looks specifically at what climate experts have to say about this.

Also, I don't see how paleoclimate data does anything but strongly confirm the role of CO2 as a strong driver of climate change. Here's a cool, understandable lecture by paleoclimatologist Richard Alley that goes into the issue in more detail.

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Also, there is a new theory which explains the mechanism for ice age and hot house cycles which has been under the radar for about 15 years now in spite of research at CERN which confirmed that cosmic rays generate highly reflective earth cooling low level clouds.
Svensmark: The Cloud Mystery


Svensmark's hypothesis is interesting in theory, but empirical evidence gathered thus far does not support his claims. For example, Krivova 2003 notes that
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"between 1970 and 1985 the cosmic ray flux, although still behaving similarly to the temperature, in fact lags it and cannot be the cause of its rise. Thus changes in the cosmic ray flux cannot be responsible for more than 15% of the temperature increase"
and likewise, Lockwood 2007 points out that temperature and cosmic ray flux have for the last few decades been moving in the opposite direction from the one required. There are other problems, but I'll just point you to the skepticalscience page on this issue, which has a lot more documentation.

EDIT: Will just add this image of cosmic rays versus temperature:



Oh darn, doesn't seem to work too well for the crucial period we're arguing about, does it. Oh well, that's science for you. Such a harsh mistress.
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The ‘hockey stick’ (a stupendously erroneous concoction) conveniently removed the medieval warm period from public attention in what was a blatant abuse of scientific privilege.  The MWP did happen and Michael Mann or the IPCC, try as they might, cannot make it go away.


Mann et al have not "tried" to make the MWP go away. It's there in their analysis, it's just not as hot as it is today. In fact, it seems to me that where the different paleo reconstructions diverge most prominently is not the MWP, but the subsequent cold period:



But regardless, Mann's work has been scrutinized so many times now that it's become kind of a cult phenomenon among climate contrarians. And all the while, it's been a red herring of sorts; there's not that much relevance to today's climate change.

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AGW is not about science.  It is about money and lots of it!  Anyone at the IPCC and many other university employees who value their job, but not necessarily their integrity, know that it is about money and to keep the gravy train rolling they must insist at all costs that AGW is real.

Oh yes, climate science, that's where the big money is! Forget about, oh, say, the fossil fuel industry - if you want the big bucks, go study this obscure field of science where, if you make an effort to communicate your findings to the public, you'll face death threats, public defamation of your character by blog "scientists" and politicians, and, if you're really good at it, even legal prosecution. It's super. You'll make, like, several thousands of bucks a year. Totally worth it!


Anyway, if we're gonna continue this thingy, best to do it in another thread on the global warming subforum, so as to avoid derailing this thread too much.
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Cheers.

Cheers! }|:oD
« Last Edit: May 12, 2012, 02:20:39 PM by werecow »
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Offline AJF

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Re: Science Blunders
« Reply #78 on: May 12, 2012, 11:54:40 PM »
The rejection of CONTINENTAL DRIFT THEORY has got to be the most classic blunder of all time - if you discount the climate change hoax of course but that really falls under fraud on an epic scale which could be considered for some other book if you were that way inclined. 

Here is an excellent summary of the emergence of continental drift theory:
http://historyweb.ucsd.edu/oreskes/Papers/Continentaldrift2002.pdf

By the way werecow, your list does little to impress me.  The institutions you mention receive funding for the reports they produce and if they fail to produce an acceptable report then those funds are very likely (ie greater than 95% percent chance) to go somewhere else, something I have witnessed first hand.  In relation to the climate change, the peer review process, which SGU and others esteem so highly, is broken and this is one reason why people reject IPCC findings:
http://nofrakkingconsensus.com/2011/01/31/does-the-ipcc-follow-the-rules-insiders-say-no/
“Insanity is doing the same thing, over and over again, but expecting different results.”
― Albert Einstein

Offline werecow

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Re: Science Blunders
« Reply #79 on: May 13, 2012, 03:19:07 AM »
By the way werecow, your list does little to impress me.  The institutions you mention receive funding for the reports they produce and if they fail to produce an acceptable report then those funds are very likely (ie greater than 95% percent chance) to go somewhere else, something I have witnessed first hand.


So pretty much every major science body in the world is corrupt? Just a thought, but if you want to get more funding for your research, the last thing you should say is "the science on this is settled".
« Last Edit: May 13, 2012, 03:23:40 AM by werecow »
Mooohn!

Online Johnny Slick

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Re: Science Blunders
« Reply #80 on: May 14, 2012, 02:58:20 PM »
Look, libtard, either every climate-related science agency in the world is corrupt or else I'm just wrong, and I know that I can't be wrong, so draw your own conclusions. ::)
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Offline werecow

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Re: Science Blunders
« Reply #81 on: May 15, 2012, 05:58:25 PM »
Look, libtard, either every climate-related science agency in the world is corrupt or else I'm just wrong, and I know that I can't be wrong, so draw your own conclusions. ::)




Your indisputable logic just rocked my world.
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Offline Skulker

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Re: Science Blunders
« Reply #82 on: May 15, 2012, 08:31:16 PM »
The rejection of CONTINENTAL DRIFT THEORY has got to be the most classic blunder of all time - if you discount the climate change hoax of course but that really falls under fraud on an epic scale which could be considered for some other book if you were that way inclined. 

Here is an excellent summary of the emergence of continental drift theory:
http://historyweb.ucsd.edu/oreskes/Papers/Continentaldrift2002.pdf

By the way werecow, your list does little to impress me.  The institutions you mention receive funding for the reports they produce and if they fail to produce an acceptable report then those funds are very likely (ie greater than 95% percent chance) to go somewhere else, something I have witnessed first hand.  In relation to the climate change, the peer review process, which SGU and others esteem so highly, is broken and this is one reason why people reject IPCC findings:
http://nofrakkingconsensus.com/2011/01/31/does-the-ipcc-follow-the-rules-insiders-say-no/

Has someone escaped from the GW ghetto ?  ::)

Offline Zytheran

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Re: Science Blunders
« Reply #83 on: May 15, 2012, 09:53:56 PM »
The rejection of CONTINENTAL DRIFT THEORY has got to be the most classic blunder of all time - if you discount the climate change hoax of course but that really falls under fraud on an epic scale which could be considered for some other book if you were that way inclined. 

Here is an excellent summary of the emergence of continental drift theory:
http://historyweb.ucsd.edu/oreskes/Papers/Continentaldrift2002.pdf

By the way werecow, your list does little to impress me.  The institutions you mention receive funding for the reports they produce and if they fail to produce an acceptable report then those funds are very likely (ie greater than 95% percent chance) to go somewhere else, something I have witnessed first hand.  In relation to the climate change, the peer review process, which SGU and others esteem so highly, is broken and this is one reason why people reject IPCC findings:
http://nofrakkingconsensus.com/2011/01/31/does-the-ipcc-follow-the-rules-insiders-say-no/

Has someone escaped from the GW ghetto ?  ::)


Yes. Yes indeed he has. >:(
And yes, he thinks every major science body in the world is corrupt and there is some sort of world wide conspiracy by scientists to hide the trooth becuase every scientist is in it for the money only.

Offline WC

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Re: Science Blunders
« Reply #84 on: May 19, 2012, 09:48:17 PM »
Has someone escaped from the GW ghetto ?  ::)
Comes now AJF. Poe or lesser troll?

Offline JD Holwick

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Re: Science Blunders
« Reply #85 on: May 21, 2012, 10:04:49 PM »
not sure if this post is still active but i have a couple of favorites...

- the elephant (named tusko) who was experimented on with a large dose of LSD is a sad and negligent science study gone awry and ethically devoid i think as well.

- most people have probably heard of this one but the "little albert" experiments which were performed by john b. watson are also terrifying and extremely unethical.

i think both of these were learned from (especially the "little albert" experiments) and both are fairly horrific.

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Offline vociferous

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Re: Science Blunders
« Reply #86 on: Jun 13, 2012, 02:25:25 AM »
This is a really tough one.  Scientists do make mistakes, but usually those mistakes are caught rather quickly by other scientists. 

Scientists do embrace incorrect paradigms, but usually those paradigms are more correct than the ones they replace and are useful.

Scientists and engineers certainly apply scientific principles wrong, maybe divide by zero and a rocket explodes in midair.

It is hard to understand exactly what you mean by blunders.  If you mean, mistaken ideas, I think they get accepted and later rejected by science all the time.  If you mean personal mistakes, that is another story.

More than likely, chemistry is the branch of science that has the most damaging and lethal mistakes, but personally, I have a particular appreciation for physics, especially nuclear physics.  You are working with really dangerous materials and the slightest mistake can be serious.  During the Manhattan project, a slipped screwdriver caused two hemispheres of Plutonium to meet and go supercritical, leading to a lethal dose of radiation.  Many other similar nuclear accidents have happened, including Currie dying of radiation poisoning.  Another example would be the "therapeutic" exposure to x-rays, although I am not sure if that was something widely practiced in medicine or just by quacks.

If you mean discarded theories, I think phlogiston, Ptolemy's orbital mechanics, and aether are my top entries, although to be clear, they make perfect sense and are perfectly good and useable theories.  They just ran up against phenomena that they could not explain.  Galileo, for example, came up with a simpler theory than Ptolemy, but not really a better one in terms of actually being able to explain astronomical observations of the day.  Modeling light as waves moving through a medium (like sound) can perfectly model almost every aspect of light, except for velocity transformations.  But, if you want to model how light moving through two slits or into and out of a prism behaves, aether is still a perfectly good theory. 

Scientists are only human, and a great example of this is Percival Lowell, who was an accomplished astronomer and all around incredibly intelligent man who deluded himself and the public into believing that he saw canals on Mars and surface features on Venus.  Despite the fact that the astronomers of the day were incredibly skeptical, he was sure he saw what he thought he saw, even when others did not. 

Offline benschwab

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Re: Science Blunders
« Reply #87 on: Jun 14, 2012, 06:44:26 AM »
As described by Dr. Feynman I like the example made by the Millikan Oil Drop Experiment.

Originally the charge of the electron was measured to be slightly smaller then what we have now measured it to be and there was a slow drift upwards in repeat experiments because scientists in good faith were unwittingly trying to agree with the established value.
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Online Chew

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Re: Science Blunders
« Reply #88 on: Jun 14, 2012, 10:13:20 AM »
During the Manhattan project, a slipped screwdriver caused two hemispheres of Plutonium to meet and go supercritical, leading to a lethal dose of radiation.

It was a hemispherical neutron reflector that slipped, not the core itself, despite what the guys on Caustic Soda said.

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Many other similar nuclear accidents have happened, including Currie dying of radiation poisoning.

Marie Curie died of aplastic anemia caused by her work with radioactive material; she did not die of radiation poisoning.

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If you mean discarded theories, I think phlogiston, Ptolemy's orbital mechanics, and aether are my top entries, although to be clear, they make perfect sense and are perfectly good and useable theories.

Ptolemy's epicycles were useable but they were hardly good, even in his day. An error of a few degrees after a few years made nobody happy.

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They just ran up against phenomena that they could not explain.  Galileo, for example, came up with a simpler theory than Ptolemy, but not really a better one in terms of actually being able to explain astronomical observations of the day.

I was not aware Galileo had his own theory of planetary motion. Please elaborate?

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Scientists are only human, and a great example of this is Percival Lowell, who was an accomplished astronomer and all around incredibly intelligent man who deluded himself and the public into believing that he saw canals on Mars and surface features on Venus.  Despite the fact that the astronomers of the day were incredibly skeptical, he was sure he saw what he thought he saw, even when others did not.

An optometrist who is an amateur astronomer recently proposed that Lowell set up his telescope's optics in such a way that it allowed Lowell to see his own arteries in his eye.
"It is difficult to say what truth is, but sometimes it is easy to recognize falsehood." -Albert Einstein

Online Johnny Slick

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Re: Science Blunders
« Reply #89 on: Jun 14, 2012, 11:17:20 AM »
I was always under the impression that the origin of the "canals" was from a bad translation of an Italian astronomer's paper.

Otherwise...

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