Author Topic: On Moderating Dishonest Behavior  (Read 1443 times)

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Offline Beleth

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On Moderating Dishonest Behavior
« on: Jun 25, 2011, 10:21:39 PM »
So let me get this straight, we ban a guy for being annoying and obnoxious, but FX is still here?

I don't get it.  Also, let me further get this correct. FX FAKED a link to make it appear that there were no news stories about something?

I understand how this can be frustrating.  You deserve a response.  Everyone who got frustrated at this situation does.

Providing intellectual challenges is such a big part of the purpose of this forum that the Rogues actually mention it in their intent for this board ("to provide an intellectually challenging environment for rational, polite discussion").  What does it mean for something to be "intellectually challenging"?  I believe that it means that there's something about it that makes people think.  We're not here to necessarily agree with each other; despite having the word "Skeptic" in the title, we're not a skeptics-only club.

What we are is a thinkers-only club.

Part of being intellectually challenging is, well, providing intellectual challenges.  A link that seems to point to something counter to one's currently held belief is one such challenge.  Does the link say what the linker thinks it says?  Is the information factual and representative of reality?  There are numerous ways to approach that challenge.  In this particular case, it's because the link was crafted in such a way as to be dissembling.  And you know what?  You guys caught it almost instantly.  I am proud of you guys for that.

Like I've said many, many times before, I'm here to set tone.  Being impolite violates the tone.  Bickering, harassing, spilling over, etc. violates the tone.  But believe it or not, being dishonest does not violate the tone (or The Rules).  It's important that the thinkers here be able to discover stuff like dishonesty on their own.  Of course I want to encourage honesty.  But I want to encourage the exposure of dishonesty even more.  And the only way to do that is to allow dishonesty here.

In this particular case, the damage FX has done to his own reputation is far worse than any punishment I could dole out.  But it is not insurmountable.  Yeah, it'll be talked about for a year or so; how long did we talk about reef tanks, or rape apologists, or space elves after they left?  But with time and hard work, reputations can be restored.

This is not a very satisfying answer to the torch-and-pitchfork crowd, so I'll say one more thing.

Beleth FX, you get a pass this time. This one time. Do not do that, or anything similar, again.
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Offline Belgarath

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Re: On Moderating Dishonest Behavior
« Reply #1 on: Jun 25, 2011, 11:37:22 PM »
I'll add this:

I actually posted that about Jwaksman before I read further through the reasoning behind why you banned him (I think you all posted additional info a bit later)..  I fully understand the reasoning behind his banning.

I don't think that what FX did warrants banning, but I do believe it should be called and highlighted for others who might come here and read the blather that he posts. When he's called on it, he never ever answers, but ignores it and moves on to some other tangent.

It's my belief that he does it mainly to troll people, I don't think I've ever seen him contribute intellectually or with anything thoughtful to ANY thread.

Anyway, just my thoughts and I appreciate the mods taking note of my frustration, which probably, in hindsight, I could have kept to myself....





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Offline Green Ideas

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Re: On Moderating Dishonest Behavior
« Reply #2 on: Jun 25, 2011, 11:48:39 PM »
I'm following that thread, and I've seen no evidence of faked links, only of people misunderstanding what was being linked to.

Edit: RETRACTED
« Last Edit: Jun 26, 2011, 01:49:18 AM by Green Ideas »
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Offline Jordan

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Re: On Moderating Dishonest Behavior
« Reply #3 on: Jun 25, 2011, 11:55:59 PM »
FYI, the modbox is really hard to read in SGUcurd theme...

Offline Johnny Slick

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Re: On Moderating Dishonest Behavior
« Reply #4 on: Jun 26, 2011, 12:48:15 AM »
To me, the really nefarious bit was where FX started a second thread in which he accused the accuser of making his stuff up, and that if a mod came out and said that in fact he could not find evidence that FX did not, in fact, change the offending post, the accuser ought to leave the board. I didn't care about it enough at the time to research the original post which was blamed and so didn't feel I ought to report something I didn't have all the infos on, but IMO that was even worse than either making up a link in order to "win" an argument or deleting that link after it was posted (which, hey, we all make mistakes, and IMO the whole point of that "edit" tag not showing up for several minutes is to protect oneself from being ripped apart for making a rash statement that one immediately regrets).
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Offline j_j

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Re: On Moderating Dishonest Behavior
« Reply #5 on: Jun 26, 2011, 01:01:30 AM »
To me, the really nefarious bit was where FX started a second thread in which he accused the accuser of making his stuff up, and that if a mod came out and said that in fact he could not find evidence that FX did not, in fact, change the offending post, the accuser ought to leave the board. I didn't care about it enough at the time to research the original post which was blamed and so didn't feel I ought to report something I didn't have all the infos on, but IMO that was even worse than either making up a link in order to "win" an argument or deleting that link after it was posted (which, hey, we all make mistakes, and IMO the whole point of that "edit" tag not showing up for several minutes is to protect oneself from being ripped apart for making a rash statement that one immediately regrets).

I have to point out that there is more than one person here who just makes up positions for other people out of their own imagination, and then proceeds to utter all sorts of disparagement and defamation based on the invented positions.
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Offline Johnny Slick

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Re: On Moderating Dishonest Behavior
« Reply #6 on: Jun 26, 2011, 01:11:51 AM »
To me, the really nefarious bit was where FX started a second thread in which he accused the accuser of making his stuff up, and that if a mod came out and said that in fact he could not find evidence that FX did not, in fact, change the offending post, the accuser ought to leave the board. I didn't care about it enough at the time to research the original post which was blamed and so didn't feel I ought to report something I didn't have all the infos on, but IMO that was even worse than either making up a link in order to "win" an argument or deleting that link after it was posted (which, hey, we all make mistakes, and IMO the whole point of that "edit" tag not showing up for several minutes is to protect oneself from being ripped apart for making a rash statement that one immediately regrets).

I have to point out that there is more than one person here who just makes up positions for other people out of their own imagination, and then proceeds to utter all sorts of disparagement and defamation based on the invented positions.
While true, I think we can all agree that there's a difference between creating straw men (which I will agree is not a good thing) and going to the extent to create a website just to attempt to win an argument. Indeed, I think that even FX agrees with this, since he took down the link and then pretended that he never posted it. And IMO there's several levels up beyond that to deny ever posting said link, call out the person who said that you did, and then tell that person that they are wrong and should leave the board.

The thing of it is, I don't think that the last post was even anywhere near necessary. When called on the BS, FX could have said "okay guys, you're right. I thought it would be funny if I posted that but then realized it would be inappropriate so I took it out". I think that in that sort of situation, anyone who continued to give him crap for that after that would have been impugning themselves, not FX. But no, he had to turn it into an ultimatum, an ultimatum which fortunately only backfired because the board software is more sophisticated than he thinks it is, and also because the moderation team is good at their hobby/job and won't allow personal affinity (in the Explicit fora, at least, he's rather well liked, and I don't think anyone in their right mind goes into the cesspool that is Global Warming) to get in the way of doing what's right.

What would have happened if this ploy had "worked" i.e. if Beleth hadn't been able to look at the history of a post pre-grace period, and the accusation was leveled by someone less, shall we say, forthright than B_B? I have to be honest here that I think FX is benefitting seriously from the grace of the moderators here. IMO this rivals the worst of what Jwaksman did.
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Offline Rider

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Re: On Moderating Dishonest Behavior
« Reply #7 on: Jun 26, 2011, 01:26:10 AM »
FX has admitted he trolls here.  He also brags about being some kind of master troll and he brags about knowing all the troll hot spots on the web. He does not care that he got caught and the fact that people are freaking starting numerous threads about how he got caught and won't respond just plays into his game. Not sure why people are surprised by his actions.

I just move on now and ignore 90% of the threads on here now.  Some forum members have been allowed to get away with far to much for to long.  The place kind has that powder keg feeling again like it did for a few months before MMP got banned.
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Offline Bunsen

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Re: On Moderating Dishonest Behavior
« Reply #8 on: Jun 26, 2011, 01:46:25 AM »
Johnny,

I don't blame FX for his posting in the secondary thread.  He made a bad choice, and having made it, backed himself into a corner he knew he couldn't fight his way out of.  He's been here a long time, and if I try to put myself into his mindset, I would have bluffed to save face in that scenario, too, hoping to cow or threaten any opposition into dropping the subject and walking away.

His misfortune was in assuming that a) nobody would call his bluff, and b) that his tenure here would dissuade the mods from acting against his interests.  He just underestimated how disgusted many people were with his actions.  As Beleth said, the person most responsible for punishing FX here is FX - none of us will likely ever trust him again, and it will be a long time before many of us even bother to read what he writes.

It's a shame.  FX is one of the first friends I made when I became truly active on these boards.  I didn't feel good about what he did, but I felt worse about going up against him when he called me out for stating my displeasure.  I'm sad to say he's graced the top of my ignore list now, and that's a shame, because he always made me laugh.

-B.

PS:  Also, "forthright" is such a nice word.  It implies intent, direction, and rectitude.  So much better than "bitter asshole on the brink of leaving because he's become tired of all the trolling and intellectual dishonesty around here," which is how I would define myself.

I just move on now and ignore 90% of the threads on here now.  Some forum members have been allowed to get away with far to much for to long.  The place kind has that powder keg feeling again like it did for a few months before MMP got banned.

Agreed.  Something's gotta give eventually.  But I'd say that it's not about permissiveness or quality of moderating - just the natural ebb and flow of day-to-day life on the forums.  A disciplinary event like the A220/MMP situation arises, and people cool their heels a bit.  Then, over time, certain types of posters slowly build confidence again, and it returns to a head.

I earnestly believe that this is the best forum on the web.  Unfortunately, the best forum on the web is still a forum, which means no matter how amazing our moderators are, everything still sucks from time to time, because forums are, of their nature, wild, lawless places where rules are pushed and people do horrible things to each other.

On any other forum, what FX did this week would be de rigeuer.  The fact that so many people were up in arms about it speaks to the quality of this place.  But no matter how much we claim that this is a reasonable place for reasonable discourse, I'll always view the mods as being a little more Earp family and a little less FBI.  There's no law here but the law we make for ourselves, and it's only the implied social contract of this forum that made what FX did so disturbing.

Offline Green Ideas

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Re: On Moderating Dishonest Behavior
« Reply #9 on: Jun 26, 2011, 01:48:33 AM »
I'm following that thread, and I've seen no evidence of faked links, only of people misunderstanding what was being linked to.

Apparently I didn't follow it close enough, I've been back there and I admit I don't quite understand what happened. I'm retracting my previous statement in this thread.
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Offline Green Ideas

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Re: On Moderating Dishonest Behavior
« Reply #10 on: Jun 26, 2011, 01:57:32 AM »
To me, the really nefarious bit was where FX started a second thread [...]

I've been trying to find that. Could you please provide a link to it? Thanks in advance.
they took my reef tank away :'(

Offline Bunsen

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Re: On Moderating Dishonest Behavior
« Reply #11 on: Jun 26, 2011, 02:10:00 AM »
I've been back there and I admit I don't quite understand what happened.


The long and short of it was:

(click to show/hide)

And that's the timeline from my memory.  If you really care, you can check the two different threads and resequence appropriately.

To me, the really nefarious bit was where FX started a second thread [...]


I've been trying to find that. Could you please provide a link to it? Thanks in advance.


http://sguforums.com/index.php/topic,36439.msg1002748.html#msg1002748

Offline Green Ideas

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Re: On Moderating Dishonest Behavior
« Reply #12 on: Jun 26, 2011, 02:37:37 AM »
Thanks a lot :tiphat:
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Offline Bash

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Re: On Moderating Dishonest Behavior
« Reply #13 on: Jun 26, 2011, 04:16:59 AM »
Oh wow. I didn't even notice that thread Bunsen.

That's... harsh.

I thought FX is the comic relief guy around here but that is just mean :-(

(and no this isn't a point-the-finger statement at FX it's what I really mean. I thought that FX is trolling but mostly harmless and I am not directly offended by his trying to pretend he didn't do anything because I had fun finding out what he did. I expected the forum software to make it possible for the mods to track his actions e.g. versioning not replacing. And now I'm really sad that Bunsen lost... well I think he lost fun. Coming here with a smile on his face. That sucks. It's like losing quite a bit of purpose in life because coming here and thinking about arguments to make, reading websites to put together arguments can take up quite a bit of your spare time and at least to me, who likes to think about stuff a lot and who likes to find out what others think, losing that sucks. Big time)
« Last Edit: Jun 26, 2011, 04:21:50 AM by Bash »

Offline Anders

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Re: On Moderating Dishonest Behavior
« Reply #14 on: Jun 26, 2011, 04:26:26 AM »
FX has been a naughty boy.

Time to send in

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