Author Topic: Anti Wi-Fi hysteria continues in Peterborough, Ontario  (Read 1462 times)

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Online DonA1979

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Re: Anti Wi-Fi hysteria continues in Peterborough, Ontario
« Reply #15 on: Jul 06, 2011, 11:02:28 AM »
I'm going to come back to this thread, because as a Canadian I'm embarrassed over this foolishness.

Just having done some quick looking through the texts/indices on my desk here's where I stand (before doing a proper read/response). 

Most WiFi transmitters operate at 2.4GHz (some may operate as high as 5GHz).  In the frequency range up to 3GHz (more common), no adverse health effects are likely, even following repeated exposures (ACGIH).  From workplace perspective the concerns with radio-frequencies is for people that actually work on transmission towers, but that's more commonly to result in an exposure up 300GHz. 

Now, I'm not currently taking in to account people that may have pacemakers or other internal medical devices. 

I will return with more after some proper reading.
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Offline mindme

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Re: Anti Wi-Fi hysteria continues in Peterborough, Ontario
« Reply #16 on: Jul 06, 2011, 11:16:29 AM »
The media reports sure made the council meeting seem like the nuts were out in force.
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Offline c60Unit

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Re: Anti Wi-Fi hysteria continues in Peterborough, Ontario
« Reply #17 on: Jul 07, 2011, 11:19:44 AM »
Interesting read on ambient RF energy:

Ambient electromagnetic energy harnessed for small electronic devices

Quote
Communications devices transmit energy in many different frequency ranges, or bands. The team's scavenging devices can capture this energy, convert it from AC to DC, and then store it in capacitors and batteries. The scavenging technology can take advantage presently of frequencies from FM radio to radar, a range spanning 100 megahertz (MHz) to 15 gigahertz (GHz) or higher.

Scavenging experiments utilizing TV bands have already yielded power amounting to hundreds of microwatts, and multi-band systems are expected to generate one milliwatt or more. That amount of power is enough to operate many small electronic devices, including a variety of sensors and microprocessors.

Looks like the TV bands are where the energy is.  Didn't say anything about Wi-Fi.  Of course, if you want ambient energy, just step outside on a sunny day!   Ohhh my, has this school district been letting the kids go out to recess under a themonuclear reactor?!


Online kvuo75

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Re: Anti Wi-Fi hysteria continues in Peterborough, Ontario
« Reply #18 on: Jul 07, 2011, 09:51:17 PM »
Interesting read on ambient RF energy:

Ambient electromagnetic energy harnessed for small electronic devices

Quote
Communications devices transmit energy in many different frequency ranges, or bands. The team's scavenging devices can capture this energy, convert it from AC to DC, and then store it in capacitors and batteries. The scavenging technology can take advantage presently of frequencies from FM radio to radar, a range spanning 100 megahertz (MHz) to 15 gigahertz (GHz) or higher.

Scavenging experiments utilizing TV bands have already yielded power amounting to hundreds of microwatts, and multi-band systems are expected to generate one milliwatt or more. That amount of power is enough to operate many small electronic devices, including a variety of sensors and microprocessors.

Looks like the TV bands are where the energy is.  Didn't say anything about Wi-Fi.  Of course, if you want ambient energy, just step outside on a sunny day!   Ohhh my, has this school district been letting the kids go out to recess under a themonuclear reactor?!


dammit, I spent about 12 yrs living about 500m from a 50kw AM broadcast radio transmitter site too ~1mhz. we're all gone.. The sun, radio stations. 2.8ghz wifi, 5ghz wifi, cellphones, cordless phones, microwave ovens, 50-60hz mains, cd players! Ipods! LITHIUM ION BATTERIES! THE INTERNET! we're all dead I tell you!





Offline EMF_Lorax

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Re: Anti Wi-Fi hysteria continues in Peterborough, Ontario
« Reply #19 on: Jun 08, 2012, 01:56:24 PM »
I am a senior IT Tech in BC

What exactly does that mean?  Does "senior IT tech" have some kind of official definition up there, or do you just tell other people how to hook up routers?

Quote
I have a very deep understanding of what happens from a biological standpoint and also technical standpoint

Could you explain your "deep understanding"?  How does it work, and why do only some people experience severe symptoms while most people are completely unaffected?

Regarding my experience, 15 years of server, desktop and network experience from the Enterprise down. Ran a successful IT consultancy for nine years - clients included biotech, manufacturing, legal and real estate manufacturing.

Regarding why some people are affected and others are not - it depends on a number of factors - toxicity, genetics to name a few.

Online Morvis13

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Re: Anti Wi-Fi hysteria continues in Peterborough, Ontario
« Reply #20 on: Jun 08, 2012, 02:08:09 PM »
I am a senior IT Tech in BC

What exactly does that mean?  Does "senior IT tech" have some kind of official definition up there, or do you just tell other people how to hook up routers?

Quote
I have a very deep understanding of what happens from a biological standpoint and also technical standpoint

Could you explain your "deep understanding"?  How does it work, and why do only some people experience severe symptoms while most people are completely unaffected?

Regarding my experience, 15 years of server, desktop and network experience from the Enterprise down. Ran a successful IT consultancy for nine years - clients included biotech, manufacturing, legal and real estate manufacturing.

Regarding why some people are affected and others are not - it depends on a number of factors - toxicity, genetics to name a few the kids are making shit up to get out of school.

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Online superdave

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Re: Anti Wi-Fi hysteria continues in Peterborough, Ontario
« Reply #21 on: Jun 08, 2012, 02:36:47 PM »
Ok what toxic substance are we talking about?  How is it getting inside these people?  Why does the toxicity only effect some people?  How does the toxicity sensitize a person to EMF?
« Last Edit: Jun 08, 2012, 02:52:59 PM by superdave »

Online random poet

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Re: Anti Wi-Fi hysteria continues in Peterborough, Ontario
« Reply #22 on: Jun 08, 2012, 03:44:36 PM »
This is the stupidest thing ever and I hope it doesn't spread to Québec. We have enough to worry about, with psychos mailing body parts and a proto-dictatorial government on both levels of government. This bullshit is a waste of time. Keep your nutjobs, Ontario. (Keep your monarch too, actually.)

Yeah, I could go on ranting about the queen, but really I just wanted to put this thread on watch.
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Offline vociferous

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Re: Anti Wi-Fi hysteria continues in Peterborough, Ontario
« Reply #23 on: Jun 08, 2012, 03:49:56 PM »
>>She spends less time researching than she does speaking about her shoddy research into the effects of non-ionizing radiation. <<

1 The professor in question has had a very relevant double blind study published where she provoked heart arrhythmia in several individuals using a DECT cordless home phone. One subject experienced an instantaneous doubling of heart rate.

2. Many of the parents who are objecting to Wi-Fi are electrohypersensitive (EHS) and are trying to protect ALL of the children who will be exposed to Wi-Fi - they have first hand experience. These parents have every right to be angry as the school district is not listening to them or the world renowned independent scientists who are sounding the alarm bell.

3. In a "blind" study which was featured on national TV program on the safety of Wi-Fi in schools, she was able to provoke a significant increase in heart rate of a grown man by exposing him to Wi-Fi radiation and the subject was able to reliably tell when the Wi-Fi was on or off. Health Canada is aware of this study. Why are they not attempting to replicate it using a "double blind" protocol?

I am a senior IT Tech in BC who became electrohypersensitive over four years ago. I have a very deep understanding of what happens from a biological standpoint and also technical standpoint from exposure to Wi-Fi or any other kind of non-ionizing radiation. Make no mistake - EHS is real, from someone who has had first hand experience. There is a clear temporal/spatial relationship to exposure and symptoms.

How interesting it is that Health Canada, who has  in the past cited studies on low level electromagnetic radiation from the the World Health Organization (WHO) that support it's "Wi-Fi is safe" position  refuses to change it's stance, despite the fact that though the WHO classified low level electromagnetic radiation as a 2B (possible) carcinogen at the end of May 2011.

What journal was this study published in?

There have been numerous studies conducted in this field and no high quality double blind study has ever indicated that humans have the ability to detect low power radio waves. 

In the scientific community, we do not accept anecdotal evidence to show that "radio-sensitivity" is real.  We need a controlled, double blind setting that shows someone's symptoms are correlated in a statistically-significant way with the radio flux of their environment.  Every good study that I am aware of that has done this has failed to show any such thing as "radio-sensitivity".

The medical evidence overwhelming shows that "radio-sensitivity" is a neurological condition that is not created by any external stimuli. 

I am a senior IT Tech in BC

What exactly does that mean?  Does "senior IT tech" have some kind of official definition up there, or do you just tell other people how to hook up routers?

Quote
I have a very deep understanding of what happens from a biological standpoint and also technical standpoint

Could you explain your "deep understanding"?  How does it work, and why do only some people experience severe symptoms while most people are completely unaffected?

Regarding my experience, 15 years of server, desktop and network experience from the Enterprise down. Ran a successful IT consultancy for nine years - clients included biotech, manufacturing, legal and real estate manufacturing.

Regarding why some people are affected and others are not - it depends on a number of factors - toxicity, genetics to name a few.

Do you have any background in physics or radiological medicine?  It does not sound like your professional experience really qualifies you to understand the physics involved in electromagnetic radiation nor the chemical affects it has on biological systems.

To put it simply, non-ionizing radiation causes the temporary excitation of the electrons in the atoms it comes into contact with, but at the flux levels that people are typically exposed to, is not strong enough to break bonds or have any significant affect.  In addition, those wavelengths used in communications are typically picked because they do not interact strongly with most materials.

In fact, the radiation flux coming from a sunny day is many orders of magnitude stronger than the flux from a WiFi station or cellular phone.  It causes significant thermal effects and contains ionizing radiation which can cause cancer.  One would think that if someone were truly sensitive to radiation, going outdoors would make them very ill given the high flux of solar radiation.
« Last Edit: Jun 08, 2012, 03:59:15 PM by vociferous »

Offline Ajzzz

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Re: Anti Wi-Fi hysteria continues in Peterborough, Ontario
« Reply #24 on: Jun 08, 2012, 04:47:26 PM »
Controlling interference between the phone and the heart monitor would be trivial. How could plugging the phone into a dead or live socket blind the experimenter? This doesn't make sense as an attempt to double blind a study. Why not remove the antenna from a phone? Have a placebo controlled trial where the phone is turned on, and the experimenter doesn't know which phone transmits.
« Last Edit: Jun 08, 2012, 05:06:06 PM by Ajzzz »

Offline vociferous

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Re: Anti Wi-Fi hysteria continues in Peterborough, Ontario
« Reply #25 on: Jun 08, 2012, 06:02:10 PM »
Controlling interference between the phone and the heart monitor would be trivial. How could plugging the phone into a dead or live socket blind the experimenter? This doesn't make sense as an attempt to double blind a study. Why not remove the antenna from a phone? Have a placebo controlled trial where the phone is turned on, and the experimenter doesn't know which phone transmits.

The whole phone notion is pretty nonsense anyway.

If you were going to design a good study.

1.  The room where the experiment is conducted should be shielded from outside RF waves.

2.  A background level of radiation in the tested band should be monitored at all times.

3.  Various levels of radiation in several different bands should be used.  They should be generated by a calibrated, controllable radio transmitter, not by some off the shelf phone.

4.  The radio transmitter should be controlled by a computer using a random number generator, not by a human being.  It should be going through different, random periods of transmission at various frequencies.  The amount of flux generated should be many times that expected from a typical transmitter. 

Obviously, the experimenter was a botanist and knows little or nothing about physics. 

Offline Traveler

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Re: Anti Wi-Fi hysteria continues in Peterborough, Ontario
« Reply #26 on: Jun 08, 2012, 09:02:34 PM »
You fool. Don't you know that people who are sensitive to EMF are also sensitive to skepticism and double blind experiments?   ;)
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Offline drizz

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Re: Anti Wi-Fi hysteria continues in Peterborough, Ontario
« Reply #27 on: Jun 09, 2012, 06:59:22 AM »
Bahahahahaha Magda Havas again! She is literally the only "expert" I have ever seen cited when an article about banning WiFi comes up. What a total crank!

Offline ConspicuousCarl

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Re: Anti Wi-Fi hysteria continues in Peterborough, Ontario
« Reply #28 on: Jun 11, 2012, 04:16:55 PM »
In EMF_Lorax, I think we have found the IT analog of the Registered Nurse delusion.  Patients suffering from this delusion have an inflated sense of authority on a subject due to their extensive work in the presence of a thing, despite having insufficient knowledge of it.  This leads them to mistake pure intuition for expertise.

Offline neksys

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Re: Anti Wi-Fi hysteria continues in Peterborough, Ontario
« Reply #29 on: Jun 19, 2012, 04:47:06 PM »
The nutjobs have been out in full force in my community lately (Nanaimo, BC.). They've taken to waving signs and petitioning City Council for a ban on wi-fi.

Sigh.

If interested, check out Ms. Christel Martin's submissions. Its nothing you haven't heard before, though.