Topic: Racism on the forums

[Beleth]

I agree with Belgarath too.

And it's now "Seasoned Contributor" instead of "Valued Contributor".  Is that okay?

[Eternally Learning]

I agree with Belgarath too.

And it's now "Seasoned Contributor" instead of "Valued Contributor".  Is that okay?

Not as awesome as "Regular Contributor" to be sure,    but I suppose it'll do.  Are there any other auto-tags like this which might infer a value judgement on the poster?

[Beleth]

Well, there's "Poster of Extraordinary Magnitude" (10,000+ posts) and "The Poster of the Beast" (easter egg, guess where), but that's about it.

[Eternally Learning]

Well, there's "Poster of Extraordinary Magnitude" (10,000+ posts) and "The Poster of the Beast" (easter egg, guess where), but that's about it.

I'm cool with both those, but I think you left one out: "ʇsɐǝq ǝɥʇ ɟo ɹǝʇsod ǝɥʇ"

[thelatinist]

Beleth, I fundamentally disagree that what chevolek is doing is polite, rational and intellectually challenging discussion. I have no problem with someone bringing up the topic of race, with discussing racial disparities in achievement, etc.  I would be glad to argue even ridiculous The Bell Curve-inspired topics.  But that is not what chevolek does, or at least not all that she does.  She spews hatred, calls names, and uses deliberately offensive language.  She calls black people "chimps," she dismisses people of other religions as "culturally inferior," she calls people of other races and cultures "savages."

This board has a rule against calling other posters names.  It is a sound rule, as such behavior does not promote discussion.  Neither, I believe, does such deliberately inflammatory language and insults when targeted at entire races or classes of people.  If repeatedly calling me a savage and a chimp and advocating for my sterilization would merit action, I believe that calling an entire race of people these names should be equally actionable.

[Beleth]

There are two levels of conversation going on here:

- What should we do about racist comments in general?
- What should we do about chelovek specifically?

I am unwilling to publicly talk about what we are going to do (or have done) with chelovek, because I don't discuss sanctions below suspension level with anyone but the other mods and the person being sanctioned.

So that leaves racism in general, and I've expressed my feelings about that.

Thelatinist, mkultra, and others - Thanks for bringing those other incidents to my attention.  I will discuss further actions with the mod team.

[thelatinist]

Thelatinist, mkultra, and others - Thanks for bringing those other incidents to my attention.  I will discuss further actions with the mod team.

You are welcome, but I've reported all of these things before.

[Jeremy's Sea]

I wasn't sure how many others flagged that initial post in the thread, but I did specifically comment "Race baiting yet again." I have gone head to head with chelovek before and knew full well what they are capable of saying or doing, but that post was blatant race baiting. Open discussion and transmission of ideas is important and general trolling is annoying, but being intentionally inflammatory is a different issue, thus I flagged. I think the reason this is spiraling more is because I continued to complain that I didn't understand why a mod would have a put up and shut up attitude about something that many forum members do/might feel strongly about. If the rest of the forum told me to pipe down I would take my blow and move on, but clearly I wasn't alone in my feelings.

There is a report post function, I didn't push because I felt the need to enforce the rules and I think all members are contributing content and should absolutely have a say in the tone of the forum.

All of that said I am glad this thread happened and I am happy to see Beleth, Panda and Karyn take this seriously. Too many other forums a rule gets slapped down and that's the end of discussion. For the record I am not out for a chelovek banning, but I think if they are incapable of reigning in the borderline hate speech rhetoric then they should have help.

[Bunsen]

- What should we do about racist comments in general?
- What should we do about chelovek specifically?

The problem, as I see it, is one of racist comments vs. racism, which seems silly at first, but is actually an important distinction.

I have no doubt that I have said something others here would consider racist.  An example that comes to mind would be when I advocated drug and criminal background screening for welfare and purchase tracking for food stamps and EBT.  A few people said that it was racist because my thoughts ran along the lines of:

a) a larger percentage of black people live in poverty compared to whites,
b) a larger percentage of black people commit crimes and abuse street drugs compared to whites, and
c) a larger percentage of black people accept EBT assistance than whites,

ergo

d) we should be stopping black people specifically from receiving help they need.

Obviously, I don't think (D) - and I'd be an idiot if I did.  I said something, though, that can be construed as a racist comment.  If somebody wanted to argue that I was being racist in that situation, it would be hard for me to argue against their point.  That being said, I don't think that many people look at a post of mine on any general subject and say, "Bunsen?  Who's that again?  Oh, right, the racist."

Replace "Bunsen" with "Chelovek" (or a couple of other posters, it's not just him/her) in that sentence, and I have that thought a few times a week here at the SGUF. 

I don't believe I've ever reported Chelovek's particular racist trolling, because I agree with what a few others have said - his/her arguments are so insipidly, mindlessly, and demonstrably wrong that they are easily ignored, even when s/he desperately tries to derail the conversation.  If Chelovek were better at being a troll, I'd report his/her derails and hate speech.  However, unlike SP@R, HarryBalls, JWaksman, and MMP, s/he just lacks the posting talent/frequency to really obstruct day-to-day functions around the fora.

The problem isn't how Chelovek interacts with others on this forum - it's how Chelovek represents this forum to the outside world.  We members all know and appreciate that this forum permits a certain level of ass-hattery (hell, I still post here, that's proof enough,) but the average external guest reader doesn't.  And so, what they see instead is a forum that permits, and by permitting, welcomes hate speech.  That's bad, no matter how you color it.  You can talk around the fact all day by going on about "creating a stimulating, sexy, fun new haven on the internet where we can all learn from each other and be groovy, man," but it doesn't matter one good god-damned bit to those people who aren't indoctrinated in the protocols and community of the SGUF.  We're just the skeptics who cavort with racists.

And that is why, in short, my answer to your two-part question is:

1.)  Qualify them, limit them, and create rules that allow them to be reigned in when necessary, and
2.)  jail Chelovek to explicit where s/he can't do permanent harm to our guest readership's view of the SGU podcast through its association with a racist forum.

[thelatinist]

- What should we do about racist comments in general?

I am of the opinion that racist comments should be treated in the same way as any other gratuitous name calling, with warnings potentially leading to temporary suspension.  None of this should preclude civil discussion of race, merely of racist comments.

[Eternally Learning]

The problem isn't how Chelovek interacts with others on this forum - it's how Chelovek represents this forum to the outside world.  We members all know and appreciate that this forum permits a certain level of ass-hattery (hell, I still post here, that's proof enough,) but the average external guest reader doesn't.  And so, what they see instead is a forum that permits, and by permitting, welcomes hate speech.  That's bad, no matter how you color it...

...jail Chelovek to explicit where s/he can't do permanent harm to our guest readership's view of the SGU podcast through its association with a racist forum.[/b]

Here's the thing though; what are we really worried about?  Do we think someone's going to open the forum, see only a thread with chelovek (or her equivlent) in it and only read her posts while ignoring all the other threads without her and all the other posts berating and refuting her, then run away telling everyone else on the internet that people on sguforums.com are racists or like racists?  An exaggeration of your point?  Sure, but if someone's looking at the site long enough to find chelovek's diamond in the rough (let's face it, she's not that prolific of a poster) they most certainly are going to see other members who are not like that, and they most certainly will see that pretty much no one agrees with anything she posts.  The main complaint that made perfect sense to me was the title of "Valued Contributor" she carried, and that's already been resolved.

[Jeremy's Sea]

Here's the thing though; what are we really worried about?  Do we think someone's going to open the forum, see only a thread with chelovek (or her equivlent) in it and only read her posts while ignoring all the other threads without her and all the other posts berating and refuting her, then run away telling everyone else on the internet that people on sguforums.com are racists or like racists?  An exaggeration of your point?  Sure, but if someone's looking at the site long enough to find chelovek's diamond in the rough (let's face it, she's not that prolific of a poster) they most certainly are going to see other members who are not like that, and they most certainly will see that pretty much no one agrees with anything she posts.  The main complaint that made perfect sense to me was the title of "Valued Contributor" she carried, and that's already been resolved.

I just got down graded from Valued too, dang it! *posting flurry ensues*

The forum is a community, a bit like a party in a public space. If I'm having a party in a public space and people wander in and out and drink beer and converse amongst each other and stay civil, even over controversial topics that's fine. Even if there are people that hold extreme opinions or unpopular opinions they're all welcome to stay and have a good time. If it becomes clear though that someone is constantly talking shit about gays or black people or murderous muslims or she really has a chip on her shoulder about dirty mexican migrant workers stealing our jobs, and after being politely refuted she keeps jumping into conversations to espouse generally offensive nonsense, what do you do? You likely either break up your party and go elsewhere or you ask them to take their offensive opinions elsewhere if they can't temper it down.  I fail to see why this online community should function any differently. The experience is only as inclusive as we make it. Surely we're not getting so post modern that anything gets to be allowed, there are other more appropriate venues on the internet to spew bigotry. Why should race baiting be more allowable than gay bashing? It's sending the message that racism is okay as long as it's polite and confined to occasional outbursts.

Of course if I'm in the minority and the community decides that sort of thing is tolerable and for the good of everyone and the tone of the forum I will abide by it as it has clearly been run this way for a while.

[Bunsen]

An exaggeration of your point?

Yes.  Yes, it is.

let's face it, she's not that prolific of a poster

See:

I don't believe I've ever reported Chelovek's particular racist trolling, because [...] s/he just lacks the posting talent/frequency to really obstruct day-to-day functions around the fora.

The point you're avoiding, EL, is that this forum represents, and carries the name, of the SGU podcast.  We have a responsibility to maintain a positive image for the podcast, because even if some people here see us as a separate entity, non-members see the rogues and the forums as one and the same.  Do you think of the Dell forums as being separate from Dell?  Of course not.

We represent the SGU to the public.  By extension, as a member Chelovek represents the SGU to the public.  Chelovek is a filthy, no-good hateful racist.  By extension, and by the transitive rule, Chelovek is representing the SGU as supporting/allowing filthy, no-good hateful racists, and we're letting him/her do so.   THAT'S AN UNEQUIVOCALLY BAD THING.

Even if the person who is not a member that comes across Chelovek's posts is exceedingly rare, hell, even if it's just one person, ever, that takes away from a reading of this forum that we, as representatives of the SGU, even partly tolerate and welcome racists, then we have failed the SGU on a monumental level.

[jaypee]

Wait.

Allowing people to post on here doesn't reflect negatively on the SGU, since I don't think the SGU would ever advocate for restricting opposing viewpoints, no matter how wrongheaded they are.

[Jeremy's Sea]

The point you're avoiding, EL, is that this forum represents, and carries the name, of the SGU podcast.  We have a responsibility to maintain a positive image for the podcast, because even if some people here see us as a separate entity, non-members see the rogues and the forums as one and the same.  Do you think of the Dell forums as being separate from Dell?  Of course not.

We represent the SGU to the public.  By extension, as a member Chelovek represents the SGU to the public.  Chelovek is a filthy, no-good hateful racist.  By extension, and by the transitive rule, Chelovek is representing the SGU as supporting/allowing filthy, no-good hateful racists, and we're letting him/her do so.   THAT'S AN UNEQUIVOCALLY BAD THING.

Even if the person who is not a member that comes across Chelovek's posts is exceedingly rare, hell, even if it's just one person, ever, that takes away from a reading of this forum that we, as representatives of the SGU, even partly tolerate and welcome racists, then we have failed the SGU on a monumental level.

I like the freedom and the variety of this forum, but I have to agree with this as well.