Topic: Episode #329

[Chew]

Hmm... I guess my point is that while Dark Energy and Dark Matter exist, it seems to me that it's very likely that each will be found to be combinations of a number of different unknown factors...

No argument from me.

In my brain, giving the unknown a specific label somehow gives it some undo authority...

I can see how some may believe that but I try my dangest to avoid that cognitive trap.

as though there's a specific THING called dark matter.

There is a specific thing called Dark Matter, the Bullet Cluster drove in that nail, we just don't know what it is yet.

[Trinoc]

Would it be appropriate to think of dark matter and dark energy as ignorance labels ala the ether and protoplasm?

The thing about dark matter and dark energy is that they are honest ignorance labels. The "dark" bit doesn't just refer to the lack of interaction with light (as a physicist said in a recent lecture I went to, "transparent" would be a better word), it also refers to the honest admission "we don't know".

Compare words like "luminiferous aether" (to give it its full title) or "protoplasm", which seem designed to emit an air of authority and say to the listener "of course we know what we're talking about, just look what a grand name it has". They are both examples of the habit mainly in philosophy of implying that something exists because someone has made up a fancy name and obscure reasoning to justify it. By contrast, "dark matter" and "dark energy" are modest, unassuming terms that cry out to be replaced with something better when our knowledge improves.

[esterin]

Just heard the episode...
I was waiting for the BEST results and for their peer-review.
Now I am not sure what is the methodology to sort the skeptics from the deniers? apparently R. Muller is a skeptic because he thought there were real problems with the data, but now since he supports global warming he is a real skeptic, the rest, who would like to wait a for a real peer review are obviously deniers.
This is just name-calling.

[Kwisatz Haderach]

Rebecca, the study vs. practice issue is not one.  While you are absolutely correct that a huge part of improving one's gaming is studying old games, that is not considered a separate activity form practice.  Chess players use the term study and practice interchangeably.  In my experience.

Also, Halitosis is in fact a word.  It means bad breath.  It was "made up" (all words are "made up", aren't they?) in the 1870's, approximately 50 years before Listerine began using it in marketing its oral antiseptic.  You need to get over your irrational disdain for the word (just as I need to get over my own irrational disdain for the word "guesstimate").

However, I do seem to recall Listerine ads from the early 80s using the term "Simple Cronic Halitosis" to make it sound all "diseasey". But that does not alter the fact that the word itself is completely cromulent.

[Chew]

10 meters is the base accuracy of GPS. Wide Area Augmentation System (WAAS) capable GPS receivers increase this to 1 meter for the USA.

[Crystal]

I was confused about the Science or Fiction item relating to corporal punishment when I heard it on the podcast.  It seemed unclear what kind of punishment was being administered.  This is what the article says:

"One group was enrolled in a private school that used a traditional authoritarian discipline model, in which beating with a stick, slapping of the head, and pinching were administered publicly and routinely for offenses ranging from forgetting a pencil to being disruptive in class."

That is far worse than the traditional US spanking practice that Rebecca referred to and equated with beating.  I don't think it would make sense for parents in the US to use this study as evidence that their own practices will somehow make their children into liars. 

[matt_g]

One thing I don't recall being mentioned on the show for Europe's new GPS network, is that unlike the American system, it's not in service at the whim of the US Military - which from memory can reduce either accuracy or just outright switch off coverage to geographic areas in the current system. It's a pretty major policy problem to have your entire transport sector and military reliant on a satellite network controlled by another state.

cheers
mattg

[Steven Novella]

We didn't announce the WTN winner because we recorded the show early, and then the power outage kept us from making it up. Evan still does not have internet access at home.

Skeptic vs Denier - this is endless. We can't spend long segments discussing it every time the issue comes up.

The basic difference in the definition - skeptics are willing to change their mind when new data or better arguments come in.  Deniers are not. Muller changed his mind, so clearly he is behaving like a skeptic, not a denier. For those who are still holding out, we will have to wait and see what they do once the dust settles on the new analysis (peer review, etc.)

[DangerHouse]

Wow.
I just composed a well-reasoned and insightful post to this thread, only to be 'timed out' .

I lost everything I wrote.

I spent a lot of time checking references, thinking, writing, re-writing, trying to get my words to match my thoughts.

I can't tell if SGU Forums timed me out, or my browser, but SGU looks like the culprit.

Whatever,

The bare gist of my post was:

Evan: "Civilization" refers to people who live in cities. The Clovis people you were talking about had no idea what a city was. Please understand that even lowly Anthropologists try to be precise in their definitions.

--Love the SGU

[Chew]

Evan: "Civilization" refers to people who live in cities.

What dictionary are you using?

[Kwisatz Haderach]

Wow.
I just composed a well-reasoned and insightful post to this thread, only to be 'timed out' .

I lost everything I wrote.

This has happened to me before.   The solution is save your work!

Evan: "Civilization" refers to people who live in cities. The Clovis people you were talking about had no idea what a city was. Please understand that even lowly Anthropologists try to be precise in their definitions.

You should re-write your original post.

[Anders]

I thnk aether was a perfectly valid scientific concept. It solved a problem and made certain predictions. It was wrong, but that's another story. It wasn't just a place to hide our ignorance.

[Trinoc]

Evan: "Civilization" refers to people who live in cities.

What dictionary are you using?

That's the origin of the word that I was taught (from Latin). It has evolved a bit but it still means a society centred around city-like communities which have to bring in resources like food and water rather than subsistence from the land.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilization#Definition

[Trinoc]

We didn't announce the WTN winner because we recorded the show early, and then the power outage kept us from making it up. Evan still does not have internet access at home.

It's OK, I was only kidding. I assumed something like this had happened.

[esterin]

@Dr Novella
Skeptic vs deniers...your definition seems one sided, basically whoever switches to your side is the true skeptic.
It seems  from the comment that the only thing we can expect from future reviews and new data is that the rest of the "ones who are still holding out" will have to prove their true skepticism by switching sides.
Climatology seems to me as a complex field with many assumptions, it is not a well proven field (i.e. no great past achievements  and no proven methodology) how come skepticism is not the default view? 
I think the "denier" marker in this context serves nothing but to entrench "true believers" vs "deniers" attitude.