Topic: Episode #334

[Steven Novella]

Psychopathy is considered a personality disorder. I don't know if Trudeau would meet the strict definition, but he has a clearly documented history of serial fraud, he seems to have a complete disregard for the harm that he is causing his customers, including harm to their health.

I was not trying to insult him by labeling him with "mental illness" - I was simply characterizing his apparent personality.

I did not say he was mentally ill or invoke the concept of illness at all. It is misleading to characterize my statements that way - exploiting the admittedly fuzzy definition of "mental illness." Psychopathy is considered, at most, a disorder.

There also isn't a clear distinction made with sociopath. The terms are often used interchangeably.

[MikeHz]

In my shrinkology class, we were taught that a psychopath actively seeks to harm others, whereas a sociopath just lacks any empathy toward others. If someone gets in the way of what they want, tough.

[Johnny Slick]

In my shrinkology class, we were taught that a psychopath actively seeks to harm others, whereas a sociopath just lacks any empathy toward others. If someone gets in the way of what they want, tough.

I'm almost positive com my own psych courses and from Jon Ronson's book that at this point they're essentially two words for the same thing.

[GodSlayer]

I know that sometimes I yawn to pop my ears.

can't you just flex a jaw muscle to do that?

no. it has to be a yawn.

update: YOU'RE RIGHT!

...my left ear has been blocked a bit the last few days, and only the very climax of the yawn unblocks it (stupid thing blocks up whenever I blow my nose). ...except for some sort of indigestiony hiccupy thumb in my chest I don't know a name for, that random occurrence also does the trick :S

wonder if we yawn when waking or sleeping in order to make sure our hearing is at its best...safety, in other words.  (it can block up when you sleep on it, and, like mine, it can get blocked through activities before you sleep, like clearing the nose... yawning seems useful ...a hypothesis that suggests some animals wouldn't need to yawn (dolphins n' shit).)

[GodSlayer]

In my shrinkology class, we were taught that a psychopath actively seeks to harm others, whereas a sociopath just lacks any empathy toward others. If someone gets in the way of what they want, tough.

what counts as harm, though?
can a psychopath sublimate his desire to harm through miseducation that he expects will result in untreated cancers and vaccine-preventable diseases and such, or does he get no satisfaction from faceless statistical harm inflicted (in contrast to how an empathetic person can be satisfied with an abstract % increase in vaccination rates?)

[GodSlayer]

Psychopathy is considered a personality disorder.

...

There also isn't a clear distinction made with sociopath. The terms are often used interchangeably.

then, is sociopathy always regarded as a personality disorder? (aren't some of these people so high-functioning that such a classification would seem absurdly biased?)

[MikeHz]

In my shrinkology class, we were taught that a psychopath actively seeks to harm others, whereas a sociopath just lacks any empathy toward others. If someone gets in the way of what they want, tough.

what counts as harm, though?
can a psychopath sublimate his desire to harm through miseducation that he expects will result in untreated cancers and vaccine-preventable diseases and such, or does he get no satisfaction from faceless statistical harm inflicted (in contrast to how an empathetic person can be satisfied with an abstract % increase in vaccination rates?)

A drug addict might steal from his grandmother to buy meth, but he'd feel bad about it. A sociopath would do the same thing without any emotion at all. A psychopath would steal and feel good about having done it.

[GodSlayer]

A drug addict might steal from his grandmother to buy meth, but he'd feel bad about it. A sociopath would do the same thing without any emotion at all. A psychopath would steal and feel good about having done it.

what if you feel good when a clerk wrongly gives you more change than is owed? do you have to feel good about screwing someone over by your own intentions and efforts to be a psychopath, or is the consequence what matters?

[JuniorSpaceman]

A drug addict might steal from his grandmother to buy meth, but he'd feel bad about it. A sociopath would do the same thing without any emotion at all. A psychopath would steal and feel good about having done it.

what if you feel good when a clerk wrongly gives you more change than is owed? do you have to feel good about screwing someone over by your own intentions and efforts to be a psychopath, or is the consequence what matters?

This is a really interesting question in its own right, away from the 'psychopath'/'sociopath' question. I hypothesise that while a very low percentage of people would reach into an unwatched till and take money, a far higher percentage of people would happily walk away with too much change - presumably rationalised away by thinking that it's not your actions that led to the theft, but the mistake of someone else.

[Kayto]

A drug addict might steal from his grandmother to buy meth, but he'd feel bad about it. A sociopath would do the same thing without any emotion at all. A psychopath would steal and feel good about having done it.

what if you feel good when a clerk wrongly gives you more change than is owed? do you have to feel good about screwing someone over by your own intentions and efforts to be a psychopath, or is the consequence what matters?

This is a really interesting question in its own right, away from the 'psychopath'/'sociopath' question. I hypothesise that while a very low percentage of people would reach into an unwatched till and take money, a far higher percentage of people would happily walk away with too much change - presumably rationalised away by thinking that it's not your actions that led to the theft, but the mistake of someone else.

If the amount of money was what I think might be a large enough sum that would cause the clerk to get written-up, there is no way I would keep it.

If I got home and found out it was $0.50, I would probably rationalize it as ----- the clerk won't get in trouble for losing $0.50 & if they've done this over and over and over again ----- so that all the mistakes really add up, they need to get a different job.

If I got home (and the distance was pretty far) and I found out it was a large sum of money (not sure how this could happen--- maybe I was really tired), I would be very conflicted. Should I drive 50 miles so that maybe the clerk won't get in trouble? Even if I do drive 50 miles back to the store, the clerk's shift might be done? Do I remember the clerk's name.....maybe I could call the store and ask for him/her?

In any case, I would not feel good about the situation.


I, unfortunately, have some experience with addicts.
SOME blame other people around themselves for all their problems: "If my wife wasn't such a horrible person, I would not need to do all these drugs. I need to rob that guy to get drug money. But it's my horrible wife's fault that I'm an addict. If I wasn't married to her, I would not need drugs. I can't get a divorce, because it would not be good for the kids. See, it's all my wife's fault." (Boss can be substituted for wife & job for kids...etc)
I'm not sure if that kind of thinking would constitute psychopathy or not? And even if it would, then wouldn't the psychopathy be, at least in part, caused by the addiction?

[jawmo]

A drug addict might steal from his grandmother to buy meth, but he'd feel bad about it. A sociopath would do the same thing without any emotion at all. A psychopath would steal and feel good about having done it.

what if you feel good when a clerk wrongly gives you more change than is owed? do you have to feel good about screwing someone over by your own intentions and efforts to be a psychopath, or is the consequence what matters?

This is a really interesting question in its own right, away from the 'psychopath'/'sociopath' question. I hypothesise that while a very low percentage of people would reach into an unwatched till and take money, a far higher percentage of people would happily walk away with too much change - presumably rationalised away by thinking that it's not your actions that led to the theft, but the mistake of someone else.

If the amount of money was what I think might be a large enough sum that would cause the clerk to get written-up, there is no way I would keep it.

If I got home and found out it was $0.50, I would probably rationalize it as ----- the clerk won't get in trouble for losing $0.50 & if they've done this over and over and over again ----- so that all the mistakes really add up, they need to get a different job.

If I got home (and the distance was pretty far) and I found out it was a large sum of money (not sure how this could happen--- maybe I was really tired), I would be very conflicted. Should I drive 50 miles so that maybe the clerk won't get in trouble? Even if I do drive 50 miles back to the store, the clerk's shift might be done? Do I remember the clerk's name.....maybe I could call the store and ask for him/her?

In any case, I would not feel good about the situation.


I, unfortunately, have some experience with addicts.
SOME blame other people around themselves for all their problems: "If my wife wasn't such a horrible person, I would not need to do all these drugs. I need to rob that guy to get drug money. But it's my horrible wife's fault that I'm an addict. If I wasn't married to her, I would not need drugs. I can't get a divorce, because it would not be good for the kids. See, it's all my wife's fault." (Boss can be substituted for wife & job for kids...etc)
I'm not sure if that kind of thinking would constitute psychopathy or not? And even if it would, then wouldn't the psychopathy be, at least in part, caused by the addiction?

Drug addiction is a form of sociopathy, I believe, in that it derives from extrinsic factors such as the excuses for drug-taking you gave. A psychopath, by contrast, is generally "hard wired" that way (e.g. genetics). This forensic psych blog goes into this distinction in some detail.

Research suggests that, “psychopaths are a stable proportion of any population, can be from any segment of society, may constitute a distinct taxonomical class forged by frequency-dependent natural selection, and that the muting of the social emotions is the proximate mechanism that enables psychopaths to pursue their self-centered goals without felling the pangs of guilt. Sociopaths are more the products of adverse environmental experiences that affect autonomic nervous system and neurological development that may lead to physiological responses similar to those of psychopaths. Antisocial personality disorder is a legal/clinical label that may be applied to both psychopaths and sociopaths” (Walsh & Wu, 2008).

As for the "too much change" hypothetical, I daresay neither socio- or psychopath will think twice about pocketing the extra cash. Whether he considers it just rewards from a society that has wronged him is probably a matter or degree.