Topic: Reasonable Doubts

[AxeGrrl]

It was a great episode.  I want to punch D'souza in his smug, lying face 

Ditto.  It's the fact that he's knowingly lying that's most punch-worthy.

It's amazing to me how many believers are outright liars.  Creationists being the worst of the bunch (needless to say).  I've always been an atheist, but up until a few years ago, I was never really 'into' religion/atheism discussions;  the whole issue was something I just never spent much time thinking about ~ and I think that I, like so many others, thought that 'believers' were probably more honest than not......but man, ever since I've been actively involved in religion/atheism discussions, have my eyes been opened on that misconception.

But I guess lying is inevitable when you're soooooo emotionally invested in something that doesn't stand up to critical scrutiny.

[arthwollipot]

There's a difference, IMO, between lying with intent to deceive, and repeating things that aren't true because you just don't know any better. Most creationists in my experience fall under the latter description.

[David E.]

There's a difference, IMO, between lying with intent to deceive, and repeating things that aren't true because you just don't know any better. Most creationists in my experience fall under the latter description.

Yes but they are taught by the out and out lairs.  Like David Barton.  He lies about American History every single day to promote his Christian agenda.  His lies are so egregious that real Christian Historians call him a dangerous liar: dangerous because people believe his American Theocratic Bull Shit!   

[arthwollipot]

There's a difference, IMO, between lying with intent to deceive, and repeating things that aren't true because you just don't know any better. Most creationists in my experience fall under the latter description.

Yes but they are taught by the out and out lairs.  Like David Barton.  He lies about American History every single day to promote his Christian agenda.  His lies are so egregious that real Christian Historians call him a dangerous liar: dangerous because people believe his American Theocratic Bull Shit!   

Yes, but does he know that what he says is false, and he says it with a deliberate intent to deceive? Or does he believe that the things he says are actually true? If the latter, then I don't think you can legitimately call him a liar.

[Johnny Slick]

I think he knowingly engages in sophistry, which is basically the same thing. It's "oh, if I trip up this guy with logic, that means I win!!!! And don't have to think about the veracity of his claims for another day!!!!". I'm sure there is a ton of cognitive dissonance at play but in the end, when you are this topped up with poop from the rear end of a male cow, the topic of "yes, but does he really believe it" barely makes sense.

[AxeGrrl]

There's a difference, IMO, between lying with intent to deceive, and repeating things that aren't true because you just don't know any better. Most creationists in my experience fall under the latter description.

Most?   many, sure.

But let's always remember........"cdesign proponentsists"

When there's such systematic lying going on, I'm dubious of the 'most' claim.

[jomike]

Last two shows have been on presuppositionalists, and I'm not sure I can say what it it.

Agreed.

Seems like they are saying we must assume they are right and show how any other system can be right.

I find presuppositionalism strangely fascinating.  At a glance it appears obviously absurd, but it turns out to be surprisingly difficult to nail down precisely where & how it goes astray.  The RD crew did a great job with it IMO.

The foundational argument for presuppositionalism -- the Transcendental Argument for the existence of God, or TAG -- was discussed only briefly in the two RD episodes.  Masochists interested in a thorough dissection of TAG will be interested in Matt Dillahunty's fisking of it on The Atheist Experience:

TAG: Matt Slick VS Matt Dillahunty PART 1/5 - A.E. #593

Iron Chariots wiki entry here.

[jomike]

It's amazing to me how many believers are outright liars.  Creationists being the worst of the bunch (needless to say).  I've always been an atheist, but up until a few years ago, I was never really 'into' religion/atheism discussions;  the whole issue was something I just never spent much time thinking about ~ and I think that I, like so many others, thought that 'believers' were probably more honest than not......but man, ever since I've been actively involved in religion/atheism discussions, have my eyes been opened on that misconception.

I think what people like D'Souza and David Barton do is apologetics, just like conventional Christian apologists such as Lee Strobel and William Lane Craig.   They have One Right Answer firmly fixed in their minds.  Whatever arguments & evidence they encounter that support that Answer are hungrily absorbed and deployed; those that don't are filtered, not even taken into consideration, much less consciously rejected.  So Ed & Jeremy's assessment -- that D'Souza must be lying because he's too smart not to realize he's peddling falsehoods -- might not be quite accurate.  Like so many educated & intelligent apologists, D'Souza might not be deliberately lying so much as massively deluded.

[Neon Genesis]

Ditto.  It's the fact that he's knowingly lying that's most punch-worthy.

What annoys me the most about atheist versus Christian debates is that the Christians almost always ignores whatever the atheist actually says and just repeats what their pre-planned script says over and over again, as if they think that they can get the audience off its guard and trick them into believing them if they repeat the same talking point enough times or something.

[arthwollipot]

There's a difference, IMO, between lying with intent to deceive, and repeating things that aren't true because you just don't know any better. Most creationists in my experience fall under the latter description.

Most?   many, sure.

But let's always remember........"cdesign proponentsists"

When there's such systematic lying going on, I'm dubious of the 'most' claim.

See, I'm not sure even that consists of lying. It's more a rebranding of what they believe to be the truth. You wouldn't expect them to change their beliefs just because of a court order, would you? Describing what you believe in a manner that is more acceptable by the courts skirts the line very closely, I agree, but again I don't feel that there is a deliberate intent to mislead.

[seaotter]

Snakes have two penises or a penis that splits into two hemipenises.

[arthwollipot]

And they say it's all about the forked tongue!   

[seaotter]

And they say it's all about the forked tongue!   

Huh, never thought about them being forked at both ends.

[AxeGrrl]

There's a difference, IMO, between lying with intent to deceive, and repeating things that aren't true because you just don't know any better. Most creationists in my experience fall under the latter description.

Most?   many, sure.

But let's always remember........"cdesign proponentsists"

When there's such systematic lying going on, I'm dubious of the 'most' claim.

See, I'm not sure even that consists of lying. It's more a rebranding of what they believe to be the truth

But that is precisely what they lied about!   They lied about ID just being a different label for Creationism.

That was my point.

[AxeGrrl]

It's amazing to me how many believers are outright liars.  Creationists being the worst of the bunch (needless to say).  I've always been an atheist, but up until a few years ago, I was never really 'into' religion/atheism discussions;  the whole issue was something I just never spent much time thinking about ~ and I think that I, like so many others, thought that 'believers' were probably more honest than not......but man, ever since I've been actively involved in religion/atheism discussions, have my eyes been opened on that misconception.

I think what people like D'Souza and David Barton do is apologetics, just like conventional Christian apologists such as Lee Strobel and William Lane Craig.   They have One Right Answer firmly fixed in their minds.  Whatever arguments & evidence they encounter that support that Answer are hungrily absorbed and deployed; those that don't are filtered, not even taken into consideration, much less consciously rejected.  So Ed & Jeremy's assessment -- that D'Souza must be lying because he's too smart not to realize he's peddling falsehoods -- might not be quite accurate.  Like so many educated & intelligent apologists, D'Souza might not be deliberately lying so much as massively deluded.

Sorry, jomike, but I'm with Ed and Jeremy on that point.  D'Souza is far too intelligent to not know what he's doing rhetorically.