Author Topic: Episode #336  (Read 3883 times)

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Offline zouhair

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Re: Episode #336
« Reply #75 on: Dec 30, 2011, 08:00:38 AM »
I'll put this here: http://www.random.org/

Offline teggenberger

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Neti Pot - 'Hot' Water?
« Reply #76 on: Dec 30, 2011, 11:58:09 AM »
Love the show.
You guys seem awfully hard on the Neti Pot.....
It's not like it's 'Smoke & Incense & Chants' - there is a direct physical correlation involved, as in, a 'rinse'.
I thought it was unfair, Steve, how you phrased it's use as "pouring hot water into your nose" - which, as I'm sure you know,
is 'not' how the device is prescribed (i.e. use 'luke-warm' or 'room temp.' water).

There were some good points in the show about the potential for an infection however, so I may be hesitant to use tap water in the future.

Offline Trinoc

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Re: Neti Pot - 'Hot' Water?
« Reply #77 on: Dec 30, 2011, 12:41:14 PM »
Love the show.
You guys seem awfully hard on the Neti Pot.....
It's not like it's 'Smoke & Incense & Chants' - there is a direct physical correlation involved, as in, a 'rinse'.
I thought it was unfair, Steve, how you phrased it's use as "pouring hot water into your nose" - which, as I'm sure you know,
is 'not' how the device is prescribed (i.e. use 'luke-warm' or 'room temp.' water).

There were some good points in the show about the potential for an infection however, so I may be hesitant to use tap water in the future.

The message I got from the Neti Pot news story was nothing at all to do with the safety of the Neti Pot per se, and everything to do with contaminated tap water .. contaminated with amoebas in Louisiana, if I remember correctly. If a UK water company supplied water like that I'm pretty sure it would be prosecuted.

Is amoeba-contaminated water really safe to drink, as Steve said? I agree that any amoebas getting down into the stomach would be safely digested, but what about hiccuping or sneezing while drinking the water .. I'm sure we've all done that and got water blown up the back of our noses at some point. Normally nothing more than a temporary discomfort, but suppose there was a "brain-eating amoeba" (as the stories described it) in there?

I agree of course that any water should be boiled, covered and allowed to cool before being used for sinus rinsing or any other medical purpose. I'm not sure I would use distilled or de-ionised water (boiled or otherwise) as sold over here in car parts stores for topping up batteries, but I think boiled distilled water as supplied for laboratories or for drinking (yes, you can buy it, and I know of no cases of any harm caused) would be fine.

Back to the Neti Pot itself. It is the traditional Indian device for sinus irrigation, invented before the days of squeezable rubber bulbs or plastic syringes, but it's tricky to use because it relies on gravity. Any congestion can make it very difficult to get the water to flow .. and if your sinuses aren't congested, why are you rinsing them? You can buy salt water (normal or hypertonic 3x concentration) in an aerosol can, but it's a very expensive way to buy water.

It's easy to make a normal (0.9%) or hypertonic (2.7%) solution of rock salt in boiled water. Some formulas suggest adding 0.3% sodium bicarbonate to normalise the pH. Rock salt is suggested to avoid the additives like free running salts and iodide, but this is probably naturalistic fallacy bullshit. I don't advise non-saline water: in my case at least it results in an instant splitting headache. Normal saline is fine for routine rinsing, but I was prescribed hypertonic for chronic sinusitis.

Sinus rinsing certainly isn't woo. I've had it prescribed by two ENT specialists for chronic sinusitis. Most of the time I just spray a small amount from a refilled inhaler bottle, but for a serious rinse a 30ml plastic syringe (without the needle!) works well. I've found that using it every day even when there is no congestion is a bad idea .. imagine what washing your hands in sea water all the time would do to your skin: that's what the inside of my nose started to feel like!

In summary: sinus rinsing is not woo, it's a perfectly normal medical procedure for sinusitis etc. Neti Pots are OK, but are not the most efficient way to rinse. Always boil the water, whatever the source, particularly if you live in Louisiana. In fact, in Louisiana or anywhere else where water companies can get away with bugs in the water, boil your drinking water as well. Use saline not plain water if you don't want an instant headache. Don't overdo it or your sinuses will start to feel dry and raw.
Do people who say "First World Problems" really think the only concern of people in developing countries is where the next bowl of rice is coming from?

Offline GodSlayer

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Re: Neti Pot - 'Hot' Water?
« Reply #78 on: Dec 30, 2011, 03:52:46 PM »
The message I got from the Neti Pot news story was nothing at all to do with the safety of the Neti Pot per se, and everything to do with contaminated tap water ..

wasn't it also pretty much in the same vein as douching and colonics -- your body works fine most of the time, you don't need to do anything special, and if you persistently do these weird things, you might do more harm than good.
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Offline seaotter

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Re: Episode #336
« Reply #79 on: Dec 30, 2011, 04:05:51 PM »
What trinoc said

(click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: Dec 30, 2011, 04:08:05 PM by seaotter »
"There is no use trying," said Alice; "one can't believe impossible things." Lewis Carroll

Offline Trinoc

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Re: Neti Pot - 'Hot' Water?
« Reply #80 on: Dec 30, 2011, 04:12:45 PM »
The message I got from the Neti Pot news story was nothing at all to do with the safety of the Neti Pot per se, and everything to do with contaminated tap water ..

wasn't it also pretty much in the same vein as douching and colonics -- your body works fine most of the time, you don't need to do anything special, and if you persistently do these weird things, you might do more harm than good.

As I said later in the post, yes. Apart from being unnecessary when there is no sinus congestion problem, a lot of nasal treatments suffer from a "rebound" effect .. if you use them unnecessarily or for longer than necessary the nose's own decongestion processes stop operating to full effect since they are not sensed to be necessary, then when you stop the treatment the problem can come back with a vengeance. That's why the instructions on decongestant tablets, sprays etc., say you should not use them for more than a few days at a time to control the original problem.
Do people who say "First World Problems" really think the only concern of people in developing countries is where the next bowl of rice is coming from?

Offline GodSlayer

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Re: Episode #336
« Reply #81 on: Dec 30, 2011, 04:15:34 PM »
.
Quote from: La Rochefoucauld
If we had no faults we should not take so much pleasure in noting those of others.

Offline wijzewillem

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Re: Episode #336
« Reply #82 on: Jan 01, 2012, 12:11:48 PM »
Returning to an earlier point:

Is it the case that any finite sequence of digits is guaranteed to appear somewhere in the infinite expansion of pi?

And if that is true:

Surely this means that any finite sequence of digits can be described compactly as "digits m through n of pi", which for all but the shortest sequences is a shorter way to describe it than listing the sequence itself. In other words, there are no sequences of digits (except very short ones) for which the information entropy is equal to (or even close to) the total size of the sequence itself.

If so, then in principle I could encode, say, a whole movie by finding the complete video file in the (binary) expansion of pi and then simply specifying the start and end points. In fact I could even compress it further by applying the same compression process repeatedly to the start and end point numbers (m and n in the original example), if these numbers happen to be long enough.

This seems absurd, so surely one of my assumptions has to be wrong. Is it simply not the case that any finite sequence of digits must appear in pi somewhere? Or would one have to look so far down the expansion that the numbers m and n together (or m and the length, n-m) occupy more space than the original sequence? Both assumptions seem plausible, but the consequence of them both being true, that any sequence can be compressed into a short expression, seems totally implausible.


That's an interesting point! I don't know whether the premise is correct (should check that out) but don't forget that infinity can be a mind boggling concept. It reminds me of the infinity monkey theorem, which works only because of the weirdness of infinity.

(first time poster btw, greetings from Amsterdam, the Netherlands everybody!)

Offline wijzewillem

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Re: Episode #336
« Reply #83 on: Jan 01, 2012, 12:34:20 PM »
Pi and randomness --> Not an easy topic it seems. Two interesting links I discovered:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/04/050427094258.htm
On using Pi as a random number generator.
http://www.angio.net/pi/whynotpi.html
On finding strings of numbers in the first 200 billion digits of Pi.

Offline jt512

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Re: Episode #336
« Reply #84 on: Jan 01, 2012, 01:27:01 PM »
Since the question keeps coming up, as explained in this pdf, although statistical tests on the digits of pi have consistently failed to find any evidence against their being "random," their randomness has not been mathematically proved.

Offline Trinoc

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Re: Episode #336
« Reply #85 on: Jan 01, 2012, 01:32:15 PM »
Pi and randomness --> Not an easy topic it seems. Two interesting links I discovered:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/04/050427094258.htm
On using Pi as a random number generator.
http://www.angio.net/pi/whynotpi.html
On finding strings of numbers in the first 200 billion digits of Pi.

The first of these articles seems to be saying that whether the digits of pi form an infinite, non-recurring sequence is unknown and to be determined by experiment, whereas I thought it had been proved that pi was transcendental, which among other things guarantees that it is an infinite, non-recurring sequence. [See edit]

The second article seems to say that, given enough digits of pi, you will find an embedded sequence of any given length, but the number of digits of pi required can be very large, e.g. in their example 100 million digits of pi only just guarantees that any sequence of 5 digits will appear. Specifying whereabouts in these 100 million digits the 5-digit sequence appears would take more information than simply stating the 5-digit sequence itself. It could well be that this applies in general, so that (say) the video file in my original example would be more compact than the numbers specifying whereabouts in pi the file could be found. This would safely solve the paradox.

Edit: Proof that pi is transcendental

All transcendental numbers are irrational (since all rational numbers are algebraic, i.e. can be solutions to polynomial equations, and transcendental numbers are by definition not algebraic). If the expansion of a number either terminates or recurs than it is a simple matter to convert it to a rational: place the non-recurring part in a fraction with denominator 10n where n is the number of digits in the non-recurring part, then add it to the recurring part in a fraction with denominator 10n-1 where n is the number of digits in the recurring part. The sum of two fractions is a fraction, and all fractions with integer numerator and denominator are by definition rational.
« Last Edit: Jan 01, 2012, 02:07:09 PM by Trinoc »
Do people who say "First World Problems" really think the only concern of people in developing countries is where the next bowl of rice is coming from?

Offline wijzewillem

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Re: Episode #336
« Reply #86 on: Jan 02, 2012, 02:07:56 AM »
Trinoc, yes, that makes sense and I understand the point you were trying to make better now!

It reminds me an awful lot to the Kolmogorov complexiity stuff (of which I'm far from being an expert, I will freely admit ;)), the definition of which I find kinda cool. On randomness, there is the following bit from wikipedia:

Quote
Kolmogorov randomness (also called algorithmic randomness) defines a string (usually of bits) as being random if and only if it is shorter than any computer program that can produce that string. This definition of randomness is critically dependent on the definition of Kolmogorov complexity. To make this definition complete, a computer has to be specified, usually a Turing machine. According to the above definition of randomness, a random string is also an "incompressible" string, in the sense that it is impossible to give a representation of the string using a program whose length is shorter than the length of the string itself. However, according to this definition, most strings shorter than a certain length end up being (Chaitin-Kolmogorovically) random because the best one can do with very small strings is to write a program that simply prints these strings.

Combined with your earlier remarks, this would likely make most (if not all?) of the strings of numbers contained within Pi random (according to this definition). On the other hand, Pi itself is not considered very 'complex' according to the Kolmogorov definition as you need only a very short program to describe it's infinite string of numbers!

Offline Atheist Panda

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Re: Episode #336
« Reply #87 on: Jan 05, 2012, 11:23:13 AM »
Listened to this again, after I heard of Christopher Hitchens death...

http://www.amazon.com/God-Not-Great-Religion-Everything/dp/1600240097

An amazing book, read by the author.

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Offline pulsetsar

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Re: Episode #336
« Reply #88 on: Jan 06, 2012, 10:15:05 PM »
Trinoc - we talked about this recently in a segment that did not make it yet to the show, probably will early Jan. Drinking distilled water is potentially harmful and should be avoided.


Are you talking about polydipsia? Otherwise, I can't see how a few glasses of distilled water in place of tap water as part of an otherwise normal diet would be a problem. (of course I'm not sure I see the point either)
« Last Edit: Jan 06, 2012, 10:19:31 PM by pulsetsar »
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Offline GodSlayer

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Re: Episode #336
« Reply #89 on: Jan 06, 2012, 10:55:46 PM »
distilled water is water that was steam, right?
Quote from: La Rochefoucauld
If we had no faults we should not take so much pleasure in noting those of others.