Author Topic: "10 Body Myths Debunked" - counting calories?  (Read 8620 times)

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Offline lonely moa

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Re: "10 Body Myths Debunked" - counting calories?
« Reply #225 on: Jan 28, 2012, 04:00:31 PM »
I can metabolise more extra calories with an hour or so of exercise than freezing my nuts off all day.  I know which I'd prefer.

The reporter in the clip might not be able to do so. 
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Offline Alex Simmons

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Re: "10 Body Myths Debunked" - counting calories?
« Reply #226 on: Jan 28, 2012, 05:23:01 PM »
I can metabolise more extra calories with an hour or so of exercise than freezing my nuts off all day.  I know which I'd prefer.

The reporter in the clip might not be able to do so.
Agreed it's unlikely she could freeze my nuts off.

Offline Zytheran

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Re: "10 Body Myths Debunked" - counting calories?
« Reply #227 on: Jan 28, 2012, 05:49:18 PM »
I know humans aren't cattle but we metabolise what we eat brings up a question. 

Cattle (at least free ranging pastue eating cattle) eat only cellulose (with the associated minerals taken up by the plants), and lots of it.  They supply nearly all of their energy needs with fat (the products of the bacteria in their alimentary canal) and just a little glucose that is synthesised in their livers to feed a few organs. 


Cattle digestion is a completely different beast than human digestion. Also, cattle are a completely different beast than humans. I don't even know what your point is, dude.

Well, I don't think we are totally different than cattle... we depend on those tiny entities for our health and proper digestion.  And I recall that there was somewhere back in this thread  about metabolising calories in the same ratio as they were eaten.  What about when they are not eaten. Fat adapted individuals exercising (aerobically) in a fasted state will be using fat as a primary source of fuel rather than glycogen or cannabilising muscle.  And that fat will be stored fat being released for use.

I think Jay has challenged that assertion. Do you have a citation for it?

No citation, but one can discern whether whether one is using fat or glycogen and the above occurs.  I don't see why this wouldn't happen.

The ratio of fat / glycogen consumed depends on intensity and duration of exercise, this is a fundamental aspect of sport physiology. Obviously starting in a fasted state limits what you can do if you have already run down glycogen stores in your liver. If you have also run down fat reserves you're simply not going to be doing much because the pathways for getting energy from protein are not as fast. And once you're done that you'll die.

Offline lonely moa

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Re: "10 Body Myths Debunked" - counting calories?
« Reply #228 on: Jan 28, 2012, 06:31:58 PM »
I know humans aren't cattle but we metabolise what we eat brings up a question. 

Cattle (at least free ranging pastue eating cattle) eat only cellulose (with the associated minerals taken up by the plants), and lots of it.  They supply nearly all of their energy needs with fat (the products of the bacteria in their alimentary canal) and just a little glucose that is synthesised in their livers to feed a few organs. 


Cattle digestion is a completely different beast than human digestion. Also, cattle are a completely different beast than humans. I don't even know what your point is, dude.

Well, I don't think we are totally different than cattle... we depend on those tiny entities for our health and proper digestion.  And I recall that there was somewhere back in this thread  about metabolising calories in the same ratio as they were eaten.  What about when they are not eaten. Fat adapted individuals exercising (aerobically) in a fasted state will be using fat as a primary source of fuel rather than glycogen or cannabilising muscle.  And that fat will be stored fat being released for use.

I think Jay has challenged that assertion. Do you have a citation for it?

No citation, but one can discern whether whether one is using fat or glycogen and the above occurs.  I don't see why this wouldn't happen.

The ratio of fat / glycogen consumed depends on intensity and duration of exercise, this is a fundamental aspect of sport physiology. Obviously starting in a fasted state limits what you can do if you have already run down glycogen stores in your liver. If you have also run down fat reserves you're simply not going to be doing much because the pathways for getting energy from protein are not as fast. And once you're done that you'll die.

The average lean male human has enough fat to run several marathons, if he has trained himself to use fat as a primary fuel.  Might not be the fastest in the sprint, but that's how you ski to the pole ... and get back.
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Offline believeitornot

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Re: "10 Body Myths Debunked" - counting calories?
« Reply #229 on: Jan 30, 2012, 11:41:03 AM »
This just in:

http://www.ajcn.org/content/early/2012/01/17/ajcn.111.026328

Basically they found that the 'conventional wisdom' is right, it's the calories (stupid).

Offline Alex Simmons

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Re: "10 Body Myths Debunked" - counting calories?
« Reply #230 on: Jan 30, 2012, 04:10:44 PM »
The average lean male human has enough fat to run several marathons, if he has trained himself to use fat as a primary fuel.  Might not be the fastest in the sprint, but that's how you ski to the pole ... and get back.

When properly fueled, we have about enough glycogen for approximately 90-minutes of very hard exercise.

We have ~ 80 times that energy availability in our fat stores (more if you are fat of course).

One doesn't train how to use fat as primary fuel, the body already knows how.

What we actually do is to train to improve our aerobic capabilities (e.g. through increased capillarisation in the working muscles, increased mitochodrial density, reduced diffusion distance for the supply of key metabolites and gas exchange into the muscle cells) as that lifts both the absolute and relative power output at which we still utilise a significant proportion of fats as fuel.

When not glycogen depleted, then the fuel substrate utilisation ratio is more a function of relative intensity (for example, % of VO2max, or % of maximal aerobic power).

Ironically, the most effective training to improve one's sustainable aerobic abilities and use of fats at higher intensities are harder aerobic sessions that rely almost exclusively on glycogen for fuel.

We use glycogen all the time (even at rest - our brain can only use glycogen for example).  Here's the typical fuel substrate utilisation based on exercise intensity (% of VO2max):



Pic from Textbook of Work Physiology  - physiological bases of exercise, by Astrand and Rodahl

Offline pandamonium

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Re: "10 Body Myths Debunked" - counting calories?
« Reply #231 on: Jan 30, 2012, 06:34:58 PM »
Maybe you can't train your body to burn fat. ::) ::) ::)

Seriously, though, thanks for the easy to digest info. My eyes did not, in fact, glaze over when reading your post.

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Offline GodSlayer

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Re: "10 Body Myths Debunked" - counting calories?
« Reply #232 on: Jan 30, 2012, 08:25:37 PM »
In Australia ~7 pedestrians are killed in road accidents for each cyclist death*.  I'm guessing a few of those pedestrian deaths may well be joggers.

* Road Deaths Australia report 2010 (Dept Infrastructure, transport, regional development & local govt)

wow, I'd never have guessed at that.

does it have anything to do with drunkenness at night, or carelessness around buses, etc.?  where are these typically occurring?
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Offline GodSlayer

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Re: "10 Body Myths Debunked" - counting calories?
« Reply #233 on: Jan 30, 2012, 08:37:27 PM »
In Australia ~7 pedestrians are killed in road accidents for each cyclist death.

To figure out the relative risk, though, youd need to know the comparative number of total pedestrians to cyclists. My guess is the per-pedestrian death rate is lower than the per-cyclist death rate.

great point
thanks for reminding me why stats are evil
Quote from: La Rochefoucauld
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Offline GodSlayer

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Re: "10 Body Myths Debunked" - counting calories?
« Reply #234 on: Jan 30, 2012, 08:41:47 PM »
2. On a per-capita basis, the odds of being killed while riding a bicycle are nearly the same as the odds of being killed by a bolt of lightning"[/i]

cycling in the country vs in the city, or at night vs day, would probably be quite different, just as the odds of being killed by a lightning bolt while outside vs inside would.

from my experience I can tell that in my city/culture (considering the way people drink, drive, act socially, etc.), there is a massive decrease in risk to cycle on Sunday night than Saturday night -- WAY fewer cars, far fewer drunk pedestrians and drunk passengers, etc.

edit: wow, was that a sentence?

this is why I hate broad ass annual stats -- they don't really tell me what is useful to me.
if I was a rich man, I'd hire a cute statistician for personal use.
« Last Edit: Jan 30, 2012, 08:49:05 PM by GodSlayer »
Quote from: La Rochefoucauld
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Offline GodSlayer

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Re: "10 Body Myths Debunked" - counting calories?
« Reply #235 on: Jan 30, 2012, 08:42:40 PM »
Well, sure--but their driving on the wrong side of the street.

am I too late for the pedantic correction portion of the thread?
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Offline jt512

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Re: "10 Body Myths Debunked" - counting calories?
« Reply #236 on: Jan 30, 2012, 08:46:57 PM »
This just in:

http://www.ajcn.org/content/early/2012/01/17/ajcn.111.026328

Basically they found that the 'conventional wisdom' is right, it's the calories (stupid).


They apparently didn't achieve anywhere near the difference in macronutrient composition between diets that they hoped for.  I don't think we can really tell from this study what effects, if any, would be achieved by people who actually followed diets with substantially different macronutrient composition.

Jay

Offline pandamonium

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Re: "10 Body Myths Debunked" - counting calories?
« Reply #237 on: Jan 31, 2012, 12:57:23 AM »
Well, sure--but their driving on the wrong side of the street.

am I too late for the pedantic correction portion of the thread?
it's never too late for that.

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Offline Alex Simmons

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Re: "10 Body Myths Debunked" - counting calories?
« Reply #238 on: Jan 31, 2012, 01:28:44 AM »
Maybe you can't train your body to burn fat. ::) ::) ::)

Seriously, though, thanks for the easy to digest info. My eyes did not, in fact, glaze over when reading your post.

thanks - I do a bit of writing and attempt to make technical stuff about (cycling) training reasonably digestible.   It's an interesting blend of physics, physiology, psychology and proficiency in skills, tactics and strategy.  It's one of a few endurance sports that has the ability to monitor an athlete's actual power output on all rides.

Use of power meter data is great for myth busting (and there's a lot of myth when it comes to training).

Offline pandamonium

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Re: "10 Body Myths Debunked" - counting calories?
« Reply #239 on: Jan 31, 2012, 01:35:15 AM »
Maybe you can't train your body to burn fat. ::) ::) ::)

Seriously, though, thanks for the easy to digest info. My eyes did not, in fact, glaze over when reading your post.

thanks - I do a bit of writing and attempt to make technical stuff about (cycling) training reasonably digestible.   It's an interesting blend of physics, physiology, psychology and proficiency in skills, tactics and strategy.  It's one of a few endurance sports that has the ability to monitor an athlete's actual power output on all rides.

Use of power meter data is great for myth busting (and there's a lot of myth when it comes to training).
Hm, I might have to check out your blog (assuming that that's where you write some of your cycling training stuff). I don't know how into training I'd be, but as a science nerd who's current obsession is bikes and beer, I'm happy to just read about the subject.

Rillon's Law

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"I'm hungry but it's ok that's why we've got a confessions stand."