Author Topic: Calvin vs Servetus this time it's 4 EVER  (Read 321 times)

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Offline Kiantone

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Calvin vs Servetus this time it's 4 EVER
« on: Jan 10, 2012, 09:57:47 PM »
So my local YEC preacher has a letter in the newspaper calling non-trinitarians cults. http://www.post-journal.com/page/content.detail/id/596319/Doctrinal-Lines-Remain-Very-Important.html?nav=5010
  I bring up Calvin's burning Servetus at the stake but he says the deed was done by the civil government of Geneva. I can cite half a dozen books that say Calvin did it, I imagine he can cite books that say he didn't. I know from the Global Warming forum that consensus is a word not worth using but can anything conclusive be said about the issue?

 A member of the UU church wrote a reply   http://www.post-journal.com/page/content.detail/id/596868/New-Year-s-Resolution.html?nav=5071    and comments  http://www.post-journal.com/page/content.comment/id/596868/New-Year-s-Resolution.html?nav=5071

Any suggestions on the debate?

Offline Daws

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Re: Calvin vs Servetus this time it's 4 EVER
« Reply #1 on: Jan 10, 2012, 11:27:54 PM »
Seems like a moot point that wont make much of a difference in the long run anyway. Suppose he agrees that Calvin did it, he'll likely come up with an excuse for it. And it wont change his beliefs on god and any of the other things. I'd look at you end goal with debating the person and assess whether this line of argumentation is really headed down that way.

As for the cults I'd talk about what cults really are, how real ones can be really damaging. Not this "they gots few people and believe weird shit" cult definition. Look up some sites talking about how scientology messed them up for instance. Cults that use mind games and information control to get and keep members. Groups that disallow you from ever seeing a family member again because they left the church. Groups that don't tell you all of their beliefs "until you're ready." Groups that even physically threaten you for leaving or disobeying. "Cult" isn't a word to be used lightly, show him the real meaning of the word.
"The only people I fear are those who never have doubts." -Billy Joel, 1993

Offline Kiantone

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Re: Calvin vs Servetus this time it's 4 EVER
« Reply #2 on: Jan 11, 2012, 08:51:42 AM »
I gave him the Wiki def of cult but he wants to use his own:  Read from bottom up

apologeticsnow
Dec-29-11 9:39 PM   
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How can a definition of a cult exclude theology and doctrine? If someone wants to include sociology in the mix, fine, but to put "cult" in a mere sociological category, shortchanges what is really the issue: beliefs and doctrine. What is the ultimate standard for judging a group to be a cult? That which is organizational-sociological or theological and doctrinal? Organizational and sociological have nothing to say about the truth, but doctrine and theology do! In other words, to use organization and sociology as the ultimate standard means that truth doesn't matter. Doctrine and theology sets up truth as the priority. Something can be totally false and be okay if the ultimate standard is sociology. Not so, if the standard is doctrine and theology. Also the sociological standard makes Jesus Christ irrelevant, but the doctrine/ theology standard regards Him as the supreme standard.

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Pharyngula
Dec-29-11 8:55 PM   
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"Calvin, not me, is a superior student and expositor of the Bible, yet his views on the punishment of Servetus were in error. As you look at the NT, no commandment is given to put to the death heretics that arise. " Unless you have been beheading or burning at the stake people you consider heretics I would call you the better Christian. If you have been lighting up your adversaries I may decline to continue these discussions. Maybe Calvin missed the part about "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" or even "Love your neighbor. I would even question excommunication. The desciples got things wrong all the time but were never excommunicated. I don't think the rich young ruler counts as he had a very limited time of interaction. Servetus had been trying to convert the Moores and J*e*w*s in Spain for years.

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Pharyngula
Dec-29-11 7:12 PM   
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Snow: "Phar, is stating what is the common evangelical measuring stick on cults equivalent to inflicting beliefs on someone? If it is then you likewise are doing the same thing as you accuse me." Wouldn't it be more fair to use a more universally accepted definition of cult? Using one crafted by evangelicals is stacking the deck in your favor. Cult has a very prerogative slant to it, it is a put down.

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apologeticsnow
Dec-29-11 6:02 PM   
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Phar, it is possible that fallible men like myself don't have the corner on all interpretations of Scripture. Calvin, not me, is a superior student and expositor of the Bible, yet his views on the punishment of Servetus were in error. As you look at the NT, no commandment is given to put to the death heretics that arise. The law from the OT was misapplied since execution for the blasphemers applied to ancient Israel only. Do you have a problem with my interpretation? Show me where I am wrong. Where is my exegesis incorrect? BTW, it isn't just mine but the common view among evangelical, Catholic and Eastern Orthodox theologians. Calvin was right on concerning the person and nature of Christ,which Servetus denigrated. There never was a time when the Son was not. Scripture is plain about that. Passages like John 8: 58 and Rev. 1: 17 make that clear.

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Pharyngula
Dec-29-11 10:08 AM   
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"deriving their inspiration from outside of the predominant religious culture" "cults" arise spontaneously around novel beliefs and practices.[6]" Christianity started out as a cult.

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Pharyngula
Dec-29-11 10:02 AM   
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"Becker's cults were small religious groups lacking in organization" There are about 5.5 million Mormons in the U.S. (about the same as Muslims) and they are well organized so they can't be a cult. From what I know the JW's and Seventh day Adventists are numerous and organized as well so they can't be cults.

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Pharyngula
Dec-29-11 9:46 AM   
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Coninued "This deviation is often thought to lead to a high degree of tension between the group and the more mainstream culture surrounding it, a characteristic shared with religious sects.[5] Sociologists still maintain that unlike sects, which are products of religious schism and therefore maintain a continuity with traditional beliefs and practices, "cults" arise spontaneously around novel beliefs and practices.[6]"

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Pharyngula
Dec-29-11 9:44 AM   
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The Wiki def. of cult "The concept of "cult" was introduced into sociological classification in 1932 by American sociologist Howard P. Becker as an expansion of German theologian Ernst Troeltsch's church-sect typology. Troeltsch's aim was to distinguish between three main types of religious behavior: churchly, sectarian and mystical. Becker created four categories out of Troeltsch's first two by splitting church into "ecclesia" and "denomination", and sect into "sect" and "cult".[2] Like Troeltsch's "mystical religion", Becker's cults were small religious groups lacking in organization and emphasizing the private nature of personal beliefs.[3] Later formulations built on these characteristics while placing an additional emphasis on cults as deviant religious groups "deriving their inspiration from outside of the predominant religious culture".[4] "

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Offline jomike

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Re: Calvin vs Servetus this time it's 4 EVER
« Reply #3 on: Jan 11, 2012, 11:23:09 AM »
So my local YEC preacher has a letter in the newspaper calling non-trinitarians cults.

So any religious sect that doesn't accept a Christian doctrine that isn't spelled out in the Bible and wasn't officially adopted until several centuries after the death of Christ is by definition a cult?  By that logic a Muslim could describe all Christianity as a cult due to its rejection of the Five Pillars.  Such loose definitions render the term meaningless.  Even if one disputes secular sociologists' definitions as to what constitutes a cult, for the word to have any meaning there has to be more to it than mere disagreement on doctrine.

I bring up Calvin's burning Servetus at the stake but he says the deed was done by the civil government of Geneva.

That seems like a distinction without a difference, given Calvin's position and influence at the time.

Offline Shibboleth

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Re: Calvin vs Servetus this time it's 4 EVER
« Reply #4 on: Jan 11, 2012, 11:30:49 AM »
Yah, Christianity is a cult and this is coming from a Christian. We just are not a satanic cult.
common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.

Offline jomike

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Re: Calvin vs Servetus this time it's 4 EVER
« Reply #5 on: Jan 11, 2012, 01:19:00 PM »
Yah, Christianity is a cult and this is coming from a Christian. We just are not a satanic cult.

 ;D

Why is the Trinity the one & only doctrine that separates cults from non-cults?  What about Transubstantiation?  Salvation by faith alone?  The divinity of Mary?  The physical existence of demons?   Etc.

Offline Daws

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Re: Calvin vs Servetus this time it's 4 EVER
« Reply #6 on: Jan 14, 2012, 05:33:00 AM »
Constructive criticism time: At the least it's not how I would have done it, instead of citing wiki, which may make eyes glaze over, I would have detailed harmful acts committed by "real cults" by which I mean those cited in watchgroups, like scientologists, JW's, and branches of mormonism like with the child molesting prophet that's in jail now. I would've pointed to jonestown types, the real nutballs. Instead of merely mentioning Scientology, mention the specific kinds of acts they do that make them cult-like, the absolute control in decision making, the gradual doling out of church doctrine instead of giving it all at once, the telling them to isolate themselves from people that don't agree, divorcing family members and friends from your life because they're labeled "suppressive" (ironically), the harassment they get when they themselves try to leave...

And with this I'd push the theme that he refrain from such passive use of that word as it makes it lose it's power and it's real meaning. If everything is a cult than who cares? You're a cult, I'm a cult... It's like: if everyone is a "Nazi" than who cares about "nazis." It does the word a disservice, and does those that suffered under them a disservice. Size is moot in my opinion, entire nations have become cults under their dictators, Hitchens would have referred him to North Korea (and I've heard it said by others the largest cult in the world simply put, is China).

For specific examples of cult action and harm, I would recommend checking out Steven Hassan, an ex-cult member (moonies) who now tries to work getting people out of them his webpage is http://freedomofmind.com/index.php They offer some detailed definition of a cult. There's also lots of online stories of people victimized by cults like scientology, xenu.net is the first place I can think of to start... so yeah, research them for instance of real harm and what really makes a cult before you re-engage, and tell those stories. Stories are the interesting stuff and what he'll listen to...

Also, I'd try to shift the conversation away from Calvin, as that is indeed seeming to be a dead end. Maybe just ask him if he really thinks it's matters that much, whether he really is invested in it being true or not. The most recent turn around I got from someone over discussing a crackpot theory, who was really starting to seem hostile and emotional about it, I simply said "In all, I'm getting an impression of hostility from you, which I'm not sure of the reason for...did you have a lot invested in this guy's theory?"



(Oh btw, I must add, I didn't know it was you at first, I actually subscribe to your blog...it feels weird giving you advice... :P )
"The only people I fear are those who never have doubts." -Billy Joel, 1993