Author Topic: Skeptoid - German Wonder Weapons  (Read 1128 times)

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Offline MikeHz

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Re: Skeptoid - German Wonder Weapons
« Reply #15 on: Jan 22, 2012, 08:44:44 PM »
The Germans were the first to show a nuclear reaction taking place.  If it wasn't for the damage we did to their heavy water production (in Norway) they would have had a nuclear bomb first.  (they didn't know how to make a light water reactor).

Fortunately for the Allies, Germany had the idiot Hitler in charge. He didn’t understand the potential of nuclear weapons, figuring it was just like a regular bomb, only bigger. Why not just build more conventional bombs? He did not trust the new “Jewish physics,” and so cancelled the program.

I’m not sure Hitler ever made a correct decision.
If you still hold the same views now as you did in high school, you probably should reexamine those views.

Offline Desert Fox

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Re: Skeptoid - German Wonder Weapons
« Reply #16 on: Jan 22, 2012, 08:56:18 PM »
Some of his tactical / strategic ideas verged on brilliance but others were really bad.
"Give me the storm and tempest of thought and action, rather than the dead calm of ignorance and faith. Banish me from Eden when you will; but first let me eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge."
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Offline Grimner

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Re: Skeptoid - German Wonder Weapons
« Reply #17 on: Jan 23, 2012, 10:58:08 AM »
You might think he was flipping a coin...

I have been on the "Hitler - evil genius" band-wagon (not saying anyone here is), but the more I read the more the genius disappears while the charlatan comes forward. Currently I think that Hitler is what you get when a cult leader sets his sights on world domination and does not get bogged down in sex, drugs and outside resistance along the way.

Back to topic.
Yes, the flying wing of the 1930s and 1940s had problems with stability and one can only speculate just how many of those would have raised their heads once a prototype took off on its own. Given the lack of good wind tunnels, computer modelling and advanced materials science, I doubt a front-line aircraft would have been ready for many years.
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Offline Xptical

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Re: Skeptoid - German Wonder Weapons
« Reply #18 on: Jan 23, 2012, 12:17:17 PM »
To nit-pick, I'd say the Ho-229 was far closer to operational status than the others. By the end of the war, there were (if memory serves)... one or two glider models almost ready to be assembled. And myriad problems getting jet engines...
The rest is more like engineers putting dreams to paper to satisfy their bosses in Nazi Germany's many in-fighting services.

http://www.uboataces.com/articles-rocket-uboat.shtml


The Horten gliders were designs of rare beauty and grace.  I have made RC gliders scaled off the plans, and they flew like pigs.  Controllable, but sloppy in yaw and with really nasty tip stall characteristics.  There might be something in the scaling, or a feature that wasn't mapped to the models, but I don't understand how their design was controlled in the vertical axis.

I've seen pictures of the P1011 in a factory and I think the designs did play a role in X jet development.


I have a few flying wing gliders.  Most notably, the Kleinberg 100' wing and the SAL-SA discus-launch glider.  Both have vertical fins for stabilization.

One suggestion for wings:  they are always pitch sensitive.  Put a couple of 401 gyros on the elevons to tame them down.

Offline Anders

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Re: Skeptoid - German Wonder Weapons
« Reply #19 on: Jan 23, 2012, 12:22:27 PM »
The Germans were the first to show a nuclear reaction taking place.  If it wasn't for the damage we did to their heavy water production (in Norway) they would have had a nuclear bomb first.  (they didn't know how to make a light water reactor).

Fortunately for the Allies, Germany had the idiot Hitler in charge. He didn’t understand the potential of nuclear weapons, figuring it was just like a regular bomb, only bigger. Why not just build more conventional bombs? He did not trust the new “Jewish physics,” and so cancelled the program.

I’m not sure Hitler ever made a correct decision.

He correctly gauged the Allied reaction to occupying the Rheinland, annexing Austria and taking the Sudetenland. He was also responsible for giving Guderian green light to build up a Panzer force. So yeah, he had some good ideas.
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Offline MikeHz

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Re: Skeptoid - German Wonder Weapons
« Reply #20 on: Jan 23, 2012, 12:28:37 PM »
The trouble is that when you become a complete autocrat it becomes extremely difficult for those around you to call your bullshit. This goes for not only dictators but for those in any other field. “Flunky, give me your honest opinion, now. Do you not thing my new comedy is the funniest thing ever filmed?” “Eh…yes sir!” 
If you still hold the same views now as you did in high school, you probably should reexamine those views.

Offline Skeptic

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Re: Skeptoid - German Wonder Weapons
« Reply #21 on: Jan 23, 2012, 06:01:42 PM »
If you want a good book on this stuff read 'My Tank is fight!' by Zack Parsons.

Offline Citizen Skeptic

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Re: Skeptoid - German Wonder Weapons
« Reply #22 on: Jan 24, 2012, 01:52:07 AM »
The Germans were the first to show a nuclear reaction taking place.  If it wasn't for the damage we did to their heavy water production (in Norway) they would have had a nuclear bomb first.  (they didn't know how to make a light water reactor).

Fortunately for the Allies, Germany had the idiot Hitler in charge. He didn’t understand the potential of nuclear weapons, figuring it was just like a regular bomb, only bigger. Why not just build more conventional bombs? He did not trust the new “Jewish physics,” and so cancelled the program.

I’m not sure Hitler ever made a correct decision.

He correctly gauged the Allied reaction to occupying the Rheinland, annexing Austria and taking the Sudetenland. He was also responsible for giving Guderian green light to build up a Panzer force. So yeah, he had some good ideas.

Or he got lucky and got credit for being brilliant. That's how it works for me. :)
Advances are made by answering questions. Discoveries are made by questioning answers. -- Bernard Haisch

Offline MikeHz

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Re: Skeptoid - German Wonder Weapons
« Reply #23 on: Jan 24, 2012, 09:16:49 AM »
How did that whole brilliant invading Rheinland/Austria thing work out for him in the end? The best tanks in the world don't do much good without fuel to run them.
If you still hold the same views now as you did in high school, you probably should reexamine those views.

Online Rai

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Re: Skeptoid - German Wonder Weapons
« Reply #24 on: Jan 24, 2012, 09:33:35 AM »
How did that whole brilliant invading Rheinland/Austria thing work out for him in the end? The best tanks in the world don't do much good without fuel to run them.

Not that he ever had the best tanks in the world... The early panzers were mediocre at best and were outclassed by the T-34 (THE best tank of the war) and even the measly M4s when the proper fighting started. The later ones were formidable when it comes to armour and firepower, but were slow, unreliable and needed just too much materials and fuel, both of which was scarce in Germany.
There's, another example. See, here I'm now sitting by myself, uh, er, talking to myself. That's, that's chaos.

Offline Shibboleth

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Re: Skeptoid - German Wonder Weapons
« Reply #25 on: Jan 24, 2012, 10:19:35 AM »
My favorite thing that I saw that the Nazi's tried to build was a jet powered (maybe it was rocket) VTOL aircraft. It was kind of like a helicopter plane. It is hard to explain.
common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.

Offline worldslaziestbusker

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Re: Skeptoid - German Wonder Weapons
« Reply #26 on: Jun 14, 2012, 02:01:56 AM »
Curious, do you have any sources that you suggest to be read as far as yaw issues with the Ho-229?
I read bits and pieces about the problems but arguing with somebody who is making claims against the yaw issues and wondering what I could present against it?

Sorry for the lateness, Desert Fox.  I just listened to the latest Skeptoid and it held a reminder that got me into the bookshelf to dredge up the only text I have regarding the Horten IX V-2


The most daring of all the German jet bomber designs was a flying wing, developed by the Horten brothers who had achieved fame as designers of elegant flying wing sailplanes.
Like most devotees of drag reduction, the Hortens thought in terms of speed and fighters.  So the first approach to their ninth design was to consider it as a jet propelled fighter.  They drew plans for a first prototype, the Ho IX V-1. (German identification of prototypes used the V-number designation; V in this case was the converting [sic] the Ho IX to a fighter-bomber.  On that basis, the new aircraft - redesignated Gotha 229 - is included in this history. 
Gotha began a prototype line, which included an all-weather fighter and a trainer version as well as the fighter-bomber, and the Horten brothers continued to work to complete their powered prototype.  That aircraft, the Horten IX V-2, flew a very conservative flight research programme, gradually working up from the low speed end of the spectrum to higher speeds.  By the spring of 1945 it was ready for high speed tests, and did achieve one run at close to 500 mph.  but in the approach to the field after that test, one engine flamed out and the aircraft slammed into the ground in a ball of flame. 
The programme never progressed further.  The Gotha prototypes were not completed in time to fly before the end of the war, although one of them was almost ready when the factory was reached by Allied troops advancing into Germany.
Had the war lasted longer, there might have been other designs to describe.  The combination of jet propulsion, new radar, sweepback and other technological advances had spurred German designers to a wide variety of proposed aircraft.  And given Hitler's desire to see bombs strapped under the wings of everything that could fly, one must assume that bomber and fighter-bomber designs would have proliferated.
But they didn't, and that is perhaps the fortunate aspect of the German jet bomber programme.  It only produced a limited number of operational bombers of one model, plus two flying prototypes of two others.  In no sense did it make a major contribution to aeronautical progress.

Anderton, D.A. 1975 Jet Fighters and Bombers, Chartwell Books, Secaucus NJ, p 69.


The author also notes that the YB35 flying wing relied on its propellers for vertical stability, and that the YB49 development required four vertical stabilizers and leading fins when the propulsion was switched to Allison turbojets. 


I am reading "The Airplane" by Jay Spenser and its mosey through the history of discrete aspects of aero-engineering is a refreshing change to the usual fare on this topic.  Something Spenser mentions had never been brought to my attention before.  The modest sweep of the wing of the Me 262 was an attempt to balance the airframe when the proposed engines didn't come to production in time, not an attempt to improve critical Mach performance.  This, in addition to the placement of the engines where the piston equivalents would have to go to allow clearance for propellers, reduced my admiration for what I'd previously thought of as an example of design ahead of its time. 
You see the same habit of placement in the engines on the Arado 234.  What, sir, what were you thinking?

I once helped bring a Jumo 004 engine up to static display for an air museum.  The LAME I was working under was well versed in the development and use of early jet engines.  He told me that the state of metallurgy and manufacturing at the time meant that the average Jumo engine would get ten hours operation before needing overhaul.  X-ray machines being unavailable for the task, crack checking in the rotors was performed by piano tuners, hitting each fan blade with their mallet and listening for bum notes.  The engire we worked on had a two stroke starter motor that was used by the ground crew to spin the engine up to starting speed.  All up the thing was frighteningly primitive, and the thought of relying on two such units set so far apart gave me the heebie jeebies.
The engines on the Ho IX were closer set than in the Me 262 or the Ar 234, but assymetrical operation in an aircraft with no tail and a wing likely to produce at least some adverse yaw - no thanks.  The test pilot had things stacked against him. 
« Last Edit: Jun 14, 2012, 02:12:35 AM by worldslaziestbusker »
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Offline Desert Fox

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Re: Skeptoid - German Wonder Weapons
« Reply #27 on: Jun 14, 2012, 11:49:26 AM »
With ten hours flight on an engine, I don't think you could even fly to the United States (Did a quick check and looks like 4,850 miles.)
Cruise speed of an F-14 (Declassified USN PDF) is 420 knots or 483.3 mph. The bomber will probably be cruising far slower than that so don't see how they could ever reach the United States even assuming no stability issues.
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Offline worldslaziestbusker

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Re: Skeptoid - German Wonder Weapons
« Reply #28 on: Jun 19, 2012, 08:07:51 PM »
With ten hours flight on an engine, I don't think you could even fly to the United States (Did a quick check and looks like 4,850 miles.)
Cruise speed of an F-14 (Declassified USN PDF) is 420 knots or 483.3 mph. The bomber will probably be cruising far slower than that so don't see how they could ever reach the United States even assuming no stability issues.

I don't recall the Horten designs being proposed as intercontinental.
The concept of the Amerika Bomber drew a lot of proposals for modified versions of existing airframes and a new design from Messerschmitt, all of them propeller driven.
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Offline Desert Fox

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Re: Skeptoid - German Wonder Weapons
« Reply #29 on: Jun 20, 2012, 08:07:00 AM »
I don't recall the Horten designs being proposed as intercontinental.
The concept of the Amerika Bomber drew a lot of proposals for modified versions of existing airframes and a new design from Messerschmitt, all of them propeller driven.


How about this one?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arado_E.555



For that bomber, the argument of the engine being unable to be flown for that long seems to be a valid argument.

"Give me the storm and tempest of thought and action, rather than the dead calm of ignorance and faith. Banish me from Eden when you will; but first let me eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge."
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