Topic: How do you feel about valuing your own pleasure above everything else?

[EhJayArr]

Huh?  Quote failure?

Quite. Fixed!

While your direct behavior might not hurt anyone, what is happening in Mexico right now is a good example of how things like drugs can be very harmful.... or coffee and diamonds for that matter.

I suppose you could connect those dots; government policies that force drugs to be manufactured and sold illegally or allow diamond hoarding and human rights abuses are better root causes, imo: the consumption of drugs and diamonds don't cause the horrors associated with them, considering that the demand for drugs and diamonds could be easily met without their accompanying horrors if different policies were instituted. 

[andrewclunn]

Living for your own enjoyment above all else.  Whether that's instant gratification or overall happiness is unimportant.  However, the moment you start holding that certain things aren't permitted (like theft or lying) you are placing a value higher than your own enjoyment and it's no longer hedonism.

If you'll indulge me...

By placing value on not causing harm or unhappiness to others, aren't you still simply pursuing your own ultimate satisfaction? I'm just playing around with the semantics of this topic... but where does hedonism stop being hedonism?

I don't cut in line because I wouldn't want people to do it to me--but is not cutting in line a sacrifice I make for others, or do I not cut in line in order to satisfy my own desire to treat others equitably, considering that acting in such a way gives me the greatest ultimate satisfaction? In that way, everybody is hedonistic--just with different effects.

Sorry, but that's a load of BS.  Why the hell would I NOT steal money from a stranger if I could get away with it, if I'm only concerned with my own happiness?  You're inserting other values that are totally outside of hedonism and still attempting to call it hedonism.

[EhJayArr]

Sorry, but that's a load of BS.  Why the hell would I NOT steal money from a stranger if I could get away with it, if I'm only concerned with my own happiness?  You're inserting other values that are totally outside of hedonism and still attempting to call it hedonism.

I don't know what you would do, I'm not talking about you or any generalization--just a hypothetical person whose altruism is merely an effect of their hedonism.

If one gets the greatest pleasure/satisfaction/gratification out of helping others, how is their action any less pleasure-seeking than having a beer or masturbating? Seems to me that hedonism is defined by why somebody does something, not the result of the action.

[andrewclunn]

Sorry, but that's a load of BS.  Why the hell would I NOT steal money from a stranger if I could get away with it, if I'm only concerned with my own happiness?  You're inserting other values that are totally outside of hedonism and still attempting to call it hedonism.

I don't know what you would do, I'm not talking about you or any generalization--just a hypothetical person whose altruism is merely an effect of their hedonism.

If one gets the greatest pleasure/satisfaction/gratification out of helping others, how is their action any less pleasure-seeking than having a beer or masturbating? Seems to me that hedonism is defined by why somebody does something, not the result of the action.

Such a hedonist would then face the pitfalls of pursuing instant gratification.  If you define hedonism that way, then working for delayed gratification rather than pursuing your momentary emotional stimuli isn't hedonism.  Either way, you're not going to get somebody who plans ahead and still just helps others at a cost to them self for emotional reasons who is also a hedonist.

[EhJayArr]

Such a hedonist would then face the pitfalls of pursuing instant gratification.  If you define hedonism that way, then working for delayed gratification rather than pursuing your momentary emotional stimuli isn't hedonism.  Either way, you're not going to get somebody who plans ahead and still just helps others at a cost to them self for emotional reasons who is also a hedonist.

I'm talking about somebody who gets their jollies directly from helping others: are they not hedonistic, in that they go out of their way to help others in order to experience the pleasure of doing so?

[Anders]

It's better than anhedonia.

[andrewclunn]

Such a hedonist would then face the pitfalls of pursuing instant gratification.  If you define hedonism that way, then working for delayed gratification rather than pursuing your momentary emotional stimuli isn't hedonism.  Either way, you're not going to get somebody who plans ahead and still just helps others at a cost to them self for emotional reasons who is also a hedonist.

I'm talking about somebody who gets their jollies directly from helping others: are they not hedonistic, in that they go out of their way to help others in order to experience the pleasure of doing so?

If they do so for emotional gains, even when the long term results would be poor, then they will not be the kind of person who would forgo short term pleasure for long term gains in other areas.  How am I not being clear?  You could have an emotional hedonist who likes helping others but just be aware that then the first criticism of hedonism that came up will again apply.

[Neon Genesis]

Sorry, but that's a load of BS.  Why the hell would I NOT steal money from a stranger if I could get away with it, if I'm only concerned with my own happiness?  You're inserting other values that are totally outside of hedonism and still attempting to call it hedonism.

More accurately I think you're confusing hedonism with nihilism. 

[Caffiene]

If they do so for emotional gains, even when the long term results would be poor

Where do you get "the long term results would be poor" from? I dont see anything to suggest that is the case in EhJayArr's hypothetical.

[EhJayArr]

If they do so for emotional gains, even when the long term results would be poor, then they will not be the kind of person who would forgo short term pleasure for long term gains in other areas.  How am I not being clear?  You could have an emotional hedonist who likes helping others but just be aware that then the first criticism of hedonism that came up will again apply.

Your adding to my hypothetical, and then arguing against the part you added.

Do we agree that a hedonist considers the pursuit of pleasure as their primary action guide?

If somebody derives the most pleasure from from helping others, are they not hedonistic in that they help others in order to experience the pleasure of doing so?

[andrewclunn]

I said that's fine, but that feeling like they had helped > actually helping.  Hopefully I'm being clear this time.

[EhJayArr]

I said that's fine, but that feeling like they had helped > actually helping.  Hopefully I'm being clear this time.

I think we're on two different pages. I'm saying that:

If hedonism is 'striving to maximize net pleasure'

and

If somebody derives the most pleasure from altruism

Could the altruist's actions be considered hedonistic?

[andrewclunn]

I said that's fine, but that feeling like they had helped > actually helping.  Hopefully I'm being clear this time.

I think we're on two different pages. I'm saying that:

If hedonism is 'striving to maximize net pleasure'

and

If somebody derives the most pleasure from altruism

Could the altruist's actions be considered hedonistic?

Sure, but it's also a comparative thing.  For a hedonist to give up sex to help at a soup kitchen they'd have to get more pleasure from helping out at the soup kitchen.

I see where you're going with this.  The notion that we're all hedonists just with different tastes for pleasure or conditioning and variation on the "immediate satisfaction" vs "delayed gratification" spectrum, but I don't buy it.  I reject that notion of altruism as Objectivist mumbo jumbo.  Sometimes people knowingly act against their own pleasure and even existence for something they value more than themselves (parent's sacrificing themselves for their kids comes to mind).

[Caffiene]

Sometimes people knowingly act against their own pleasure and even existence for something they value more than themselves (parent's sacrificing themselves for their kids comes to mind).

I think youre correct there.

It seems like youve wandered from your original statement, though. You started with an absolute ("one cant be a hedonist and have obligations to others before themselves"), which now looks like its changed to just saying that some people dont act as altruistic hedonists.

[andrewclunn]

Sometimes people knowingly act against their own pleasure and even existence for something they value more than themselves (parent's sacrificing themselves for their kids comes to mind).

I think youre correct there.

It seems like youve wandered from your original statement, though. You started with an absolute ("one cant be a hedonist and have obligations to others before themselves"), which now looks like its changed to just saying that some people dont act as altruistic hedonists.

The hypothetical altruistic hedonist would do things like donate to charity to feel good about themselves, but they would never engage in an act of self annihilation.  They're helping others because it makes them feel good, not for the sake of helping others.