Topic: How do you feel about valuing your own pleasure above everything else?

[Caffiene]

The hypothetical altruistic hedonist would do things like donate to charity to feel good about themselves, but they would never engage in an act of self annihilation.  They're helping others because it makes them feel good, not for the sake of helping others.

Hmm.

I suppose it depends on the definition of hedonism, again... While its been said that hedonism is "maximising pleasure", it depends whether youre talking about maximising pleasure for yourself or youre taking the stance that maximising pleasure is an objectively worthwhile goal.

Can hedonism be only a personal thing, or can you believe in hedonism as a form of utilitarianism (eg, "I can improve the pleasure of these two people by sacrificing my own pleasure")?


Im starting to think the idea of hedonism is probably not very useful... On the one hand, it seems to be mostly an abstraction of chemical processes and "hard-wired" instincts in the body (pleasure seeking behaviour, and the conflict with other behaviour such as self-sacrifice to protect your offspring), or on the other hand a poorly defined analogy for higher level concepts like utilitarianism. Either way, it seems like any particular discussion would be better served by focussing on those things directly rather than bringing in the confusing term of hedonism. It seems like a concept thats in search of a purpose.

[andrewclunn]

Nope, now you're just expanding hedonism arbitrarily.  Look the point here isn't to try and modify hedonism so that some form of it exists that you find compatible with your own personal world view.  If you think hedonism is flawed, or just unacceptable to you, that's fine.  But it does have a real definition and I was really just trying to ask an honest, which has somehow turned into a pointless semantics battle.

Hedonism is valuing your pleasure first.  What you take pleasure in is subjective.  Whether you seek instant gratification or optimized enjoyment based on the assumption that you'll live to reap the rewards is subjective.  Your view of reality is subject (maybe you're just doing what you think Jesus wants so you can have eternal happiness in heaven).  Valuing something over your own pleasure is the one thing that is not renegotiable if you want to call yourself a hedonist.  I just wanted to know what people thought of it.  Hopefully there's no more confusion over what it means though.

[Shibboleth]

I suppose you could connect those dots; government policies that force drugs to be manufactured and sold illegally or allow diamond hoarding and human rights abuses are better root causes, imo: the consumption of drugs and diamonds don't cause the horrors associated with them, considering that the demand for drugs and diamonds could be easily met without their accompanying horrors if different policies were instituted.

It could be but it isn't. That is called diffusion of responsibility. "It isn't my fault, it is his fault." The fact of the matter is that the people purchasing the drugs fund their behavior.

[Caffiene]

Nope, now you're just expanding hedonism arbitrarily.

I was genuinely asking the question.

But I have to ask, expanding it arbitrarily from what? There hasnt been any dictionary definition discussed in this thread, and IMO the word isnt used frequently often enough to have a clear "common usage" definition. Im not convinced that is a clear definition of hedonism (or, as I said in the previous post, a clear definition that is useful) unless you put arbitrary limits on it. You yourself on the first page were saying "well if we expand the definition..."

You say "it does have a real definition", but I have yet to see it. I looked up wikipedia and a number of online dictionaries and none of them gave a definition that was specific enough to discount any of the usages Ive seen in this thread, including the one I asked about above of the utilitarianism-style "greatest pleasure for everyone". They didnt mention valuing only your own pleasure, or other specifics that are relevant to the discussion.

For example: Is it "more" hedonistic to have extreme pleasure for a short time and then die, or to live for a long time with a moderate level of pleasure? This is very relevant to self-sacrifice - if you sacrifice yourself and gain high pleasure for the moments before death, the definition of hedonism gives us nothing to judge whether that is more or less hedonsitic than not sacrificing yourself so that you can gain different pleasures later. None of the definitions Ive seen give anywhere near enough detail to answer this question.

IMO, as I mentioned above, the more I look at it the more I think hedonism isnt sufficiently well defined to be able to discuss it on any meaningful level... unless we start adding our own arbitrary limits or definitions.

[andrewclunn]

New thread title.

[andrewclunn]

Now... hope THAT solves the semantic stuff.

[EhJayArr]

Now... hope THAT solves the semantic stuff.

To be fair, I did ask you to humor my semantic tangent.