Author Topic: Natalie's latest incarnation  (Read 1048 times)

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Offline Anders

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Natalie's latest incarnation
« on: January 24, 2012, 05:58:10 AM »
http://freethoughtblogs.com/nataliereed

If anyone's interested, Natalie_B is now on Freethought Blogs.
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Offline Xptical

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Re: Natalie's latest incarnation
« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2012, 07:15:18 AM »
Until she gets pissed off and leaves there. :)

Offline superdave

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Re: Natalie's latest incarnation
« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2012, 07:50:49 AM »
I hope that is a better fit for her.  Actually I still hold out hope she'll come back here. Blogs are so much less interactive than forums.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2012, 07:54:21 AM by superdave »
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Offline Drewish

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Re: Natalie's latest incarnation
« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2012, 09:49:36 AM »
Oh damn, I started reading this: http://freethoughtblogs.com/nataliereed/2012/01/24/in-memory-of-another-natalie/

And initially thought...  Anyways, yeah Skepchick writers need to have some thick skin.  Some past events have created that kidn of environment.  I don't think Natalie is looking for that kind of conflict on a regular basis and hopefully this will be a better fit for her.
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Offline superdave

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Re: Natalie's latest incarnation
« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2012, 10:09:33 AM »
Oh damn, I started reading this: http://freethoughtblogs.com/nataliereed/2012/01/24/in-memory-of-another-natalie/

And initially thought...  Anyways, yeah Skepchick writers need to have some thick skin.  Some past events have created that kidn of environment.  I don't think Natalie is looking for that kind of conflict on a regular basis and hopefully this will be a better fit for her.


eh I didn't really agree with what I typed here so i removed it.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2012, 10:37:36 AM by superdave »
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Offline Drewish

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Re: Natalie's latest incarnation
« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2012, 10:48:16 AM »
I'm of the opinion that sex reassignment is a mistake.  I just think that gender stereotypes are BS anyways, and that if men were allowed to be 'sissies' and women to be tom boys (which they now largely are) then such a physical change would not be needed.  However, despite feeling strongly that it's not a good idea, and won't really solve the issues that it's supposed to help deal with, I don't think that's a decision that anyone can make for anybody but themselves.

I will also say that I have a real issue with some parents who are 'helping' their young children (as early as age 5) by referring to them bu their preferred gender and agreeing to get them hormone therapy so that they develop physically towards the desired gender's body type.  You know, I have an ass and a little bit of hips, and I've seen plenty of women without much in the way of curves.  Am I less of a men or are they less of a woman because they don't have the 'correct' body type and shape?  This whole thing seems so much about changing to conform to society's gender stereotypes rather than overcoming gender.  It really makes me sick, but then again, do I want the government to step in and tell parents that they can't (with the consent of their kids) go down that road?  No.  Just like how I hate that some parents teach their kids BS creationism, but there's no way to stop it without endorsing state run "thought correction" programs.

When my friend Sophia started with the hormones she got disowned by her family.  She was very scared about telling a lot of her old friends (I'm one of the few she still has).  She asked me once if I supported her decision and I told her, "I think you made a mistake.  I don't understand it.  I don't agree with it, but I feel the same way about Chris studying philosophy.  So don't worry, we're still friends so long as you still want to be."
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Offline Eternally Learning

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Re: Natalie's latest incarnation
« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2012, 11:05:12 AM »
Just posted this to her site.  We'll see where this goes.

(click to show/hide)

Offline superdave

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Re: Natalie's latest incarnation
« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2012, 11:06:41 AM »
I'm of the opinion that sex reassignment is a mistake.  I just think that gender stereotypes are BS anyways, and that if men were allowed to be 'sissies' and women to be tom boys (which they now largely are) then such a physical change would not be needed.  However, despite feeling strongly that it's not a good idea, and won't really solve the issues that it's supposed to help deal with, I don't think that's a decision that anyone can make for anybody but themselves.

I will also say that I have a real issue with some parents who are 'helping' their young children (as early as age 5) by referring to them bu their preferred gender and agreeing to get them hormone therapy so that they develop physically towards the desired gender's body type.  You know, I have an ass and a little bit of hips, and I've seen plenty of women without much in the way of curves.  Am I less of a men or are they less of a woman because they don't have the 'correct' body type and shape?  This whole thing seems so much about changing to conform to society's gender stereotypes rather than overcoming gender.  It really makes me sick, but then again, do I want the government to step in and tell parents that they can't (with the consent of their kids) go down that road?  No.  Just like how I hate that some parents teach their kids BS creationism, but there's no way to stop it without endorsing state run "thought correction" programs.

When my friend Sophia started with the hormones she got disowned by her family.  She was very scared about telling a lot of her old friends (I'm one of the few she still has).  She asked me once if I supported her decision and I told her, "I think you made a mistake.  I don't understand it.  I don't agree with it, but I feel the same way about Chris studying philosophy.  So don't worry, we're still friends so long as you still want to be."
man I wrote a long eloquent post that got eaten by the log out monster.
Long story short.  I feel natalie's problem is that she get's frustrated because she takes her beliefs about gender for granted and get sick of having to explain them.  But they are so contrary to people's intuitions that she has to just accept that she needs to keep explaining them if she wants to be a blogger.  At least she is engaged with an audience, that is something most people don't have.

Quote
it is a matter of curiosity, an intellectual exercise, a contemplation of the nature of gender and identity.
  I don't know how you could expect anything different from people who define themselves as skeptics.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2012, 11:10:31 AM by superdave »
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Offline Eternally Learning

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Re: Natalie's latest incarnation
« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2012, 11:10:47 AM »
(click to show/hide)


This post from her on Queereka helps point out that being trans if about far more than men liking pink pony princesses, and women liking power tools.  It's about the internal "map" of your body not lining up with the physical reality.

Offline superdave

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Re: Natalie's latest incarnation
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2012, 11:19:13 AM »
Just posted this to her site.  We'll see where this goes.

(click to show/hide)
I agree with you in one regard.  As much as I have read and learned from Natalie, I am still not sure what she wants from the internet.
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Offline Xptical

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Re: Natalie's latest incarnation
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2012, 12:44:04 PM »
It's about the internal "map" of your body not lining up with the physical reality.


I agree with that.  The DSM IV calls it a mental illness:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_dysmorphic_disorder

I read a story about some dude that felt like he needed to cut off his left arm.  Pretty much anyone would agree that he's a loonie.

Look, if someone wants to hack off body parts, so be it.  But let's call it what it is.  When *your brain* and *your reality* don't mix, then you have a problem *with your brain.*

Offline superdave

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Re: Natalie's latest incarnation
« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2012, 01:00:09 PM »
I just think this issue is much more complicated than either side of the debate gives it credit for and as a result both sides get very frustrated that they cannot instantly convince the other using simple arguments. 
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Offline Eternally Learning

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Re: Natalie's latest incarnation
« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2012, 01:04:03 PM »
I just think this issue is much more complicated than either side of the debate gives it credit for and as a result both sides get very frustrated that they cannot instantly convince the other using simple arguments.

I don't get frustrated that I cannot instantly convince someone, I get frustrated that my arguments instantly get labeled and dismissed without consideration and with several statements expressing how blatantly wrong I am and right they are to the point of taking it for granted.  Very similar to discussions on feminism/sexism; honest ignorance is met with horrendous contempt and shunning often times.

Offline Drewish

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Re: Natalie's latest incarnation
« Reply #13 on: January 24, 2012, 01:11:22 PM »
Look, if someone wants to hack off body parts, so be it.  But let's call it what it is.  When *your brain* and *your reality* don't mix, then you have a problem *with your brain.*

I'm not sure I agree.  I mean if I was mauled and disfigured, would the issue be with my brain?  Would it be a mental problem if I wanted reconstructive surgery.  I do feel that there is a difference, but I can't really explain how such a difference exists, as people who are born with physical problems and often get them corrected surgically or otherwise, and I don't think that is a mental issue.

It's like with all cosmetic surgery, it's a personal subjective thing.  And so long as nobody is forcing anyone else to get something done, or stopping them, or so on and so forth, it's not an issue.  When we start getting into issues like laws requiring coverage for transgender operations and such, that's when it stops being just a personal thing.  Damn it, I'm a broken record.  Everything always comes back to libertarianism with me.
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Offline Ralphy J

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Re: Natalie's latest incarnation
« Reply #14 on: January 24, 2012, 01:29:33 PM »
Look, if someone wants to hack off body parts, so be it.  But let's call it what it is.  When *your brain* and *your reality* don't mix, then you have a problem *with your brain.*

Brains are part of reality.

I don't get frustrated that I cannot instantly convince someone, I get frustrated that my arguments instantly get labeled and dismissed without consideration and with several statements expressing how blatantly wrong I am and right they are to the point of taking it for granted.  Very similar to discussions on feminism/sexism; honest ignorance is met with horrendous contempt and shunning often times.

This is because good faith questions and statements appear identical to those meant to shut down the discussion: "Why don't we have men's studies too?" or "I never had a problem with X". These questions also come up constantly even if they are tangential. The onus is on those who occupy the privileged position (e.g. men when the conversation is about structural masculine dominance) to be patient, to listen more than they might otherwise, and to recognize the way that honest questions can appear as threats. Also to try to reach consensus and clarification instead of 'winning' an argument. After that, it's up to you whether your interlocutors are being fair or not.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2012, 01:34:06 PM by Ralphy J »