Topic: The belief system of science?

[Citizen Skeptic]

I take belief to mean "confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof:" But science is rigorous proof, or at least the best proof or evidence available.  So I still don't understand how science can be belief, and if it does have belief what are these beliefs?

I agree with Fulcrum

  you have to admit that you may be, and probably are, wrong.

but I'd add that science is the least wrong thing that we know.

I just finished Something from Nothing by Lawrence Krausse. Quite a bit of cosmology is based on belief from what I can tell.

[TalkingBook]

I'm working on a quite long and in depth post about this, it should be done tomorrow. Until then, just know that you're all wrong. 

[stretcher]

I just wanted to say that I am pretty sure the person that opined on your book review is into new age ideals and may have been on acid at the time. None of that shit made sense.

[vespine]

The argument is nonsense, epistemologically, everything in your head is a belief. It's the method by which you JUSTIFY those beliefs which is important, science is the only reliable method for systematically justifying our beliefs.

[Citizen Skeptic]

The argument is nonsense, epistemologically, everything in your head is a belief. It's the method by which you JUSTIFY those beliefs which is important, science is the only reliable method for systematically justifying our beliefs.

But if it's verified by science, it's no longer a belief, it's fact. Or as close as we can get to "fact."

[vespine]

But if it's verified by science, it's no longer a belief, it's fact. Or as close as we can get to "fact."

No, "belief" is irrespective of "truth" or "fact". A belief doesn't become a "fact" when it gets adequately confirmed, it becomes a justified true belief, or "knowledge", but knowledge is still a belief, it never ceases to be a belief.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belief

No one has "facts" in their head, they have beliefs about facts, which can be either true or false.

This is my point, I'm only a novice in philosophy but what I have learned is that these concepts are well defined but can easily be misapplied (like in the 1st post) to make fallacious arguments.

Essentially, the word "belief" has different meanings, what fallacy is that when you change the definition of a word between premises?

premise 1 "World views based on beliefs are unreliable"

"unjustified, purely faith based belief"

premise 2 "science is based on beliefs"

"the simplest form of mental representation, (everything in your head)"

Conclusion: Therefore science is unreliable.

[vespine]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equivocation

Is the fallacy I was looking for..

[Citizen Skeptic]

But if it's verified by science, it's no longer a belief, it's fact. Or as close as we can get to "fact."

No, "belief" is irrespective of "truth" or "fact". A belief doesn't become a "fact" when it gets adequately confirmed, it becomes a justified true belief, or "knowledge", but knowledge is still a belief, it never ceases to be a belief.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belief

No one has "facts" in their head, they have beliefs about facts, which can be either true or false.

This is my point, I'm only a novice in philosophy but what I have learned is that these concepts are well defined but can easily be misapplied (like in the 1st post) to make fallacious arguments.

Essentially, the word "belief" has different meanings, what fallacy is that when you change the definition of a word between premises?

premise 1 "World views based on beliefs are unreliable"

"unjustified, purely faith based belief"

premise 2 "science is based on beliefs"

"the simplest form of mental representation, (everything in your head)"

Conclusion: Therefore science is unreliable.

Damn it, it's always in the definition!

[MessyAndy]

Damn it, it's always in the definition!

Dictionary.com definition of belief:
1.
something believed;  an opinion or conviction: a belief that the earth is flat.
2.
confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof: a statement unworthy of belief.
3.
confidence; faith; trust: a child's belief in his parents.
4.
a religious tenet or tenets; religious creed or faith: the Christian belief.

Oxford English dictionary definition of belief:
An acceptance that something exists or is true, especially one without proof.

No, "belief" is irrespective of "truth" or "fact". A belief doesn't become a "fact" when it gets adequately confirmed, it becomes a justified true belief, or "knowledge", but knowledge is still a belief, it never ceases to be a belief.

Surely the term loses meaning it you define belief as everything you know.  You may state that believe something to be true, but once it has not been disproved and has the weight of evidence behind it, you could state that it is true.  The term belief when applied to knowledge is superfluous unnecessary and irrelevant, hence my reasoning that scientific knowledge is not belief.  In fact if think if you define belief and knowledge in their strictest terms they are separate.

   Knowledge and Belief, from http://www.philosophyonline.co.uk/tok/knowledge2.htm

Although sometimes the words 'know' and 'believe' are used interchangeably, in a strict sense they are very different. Probably, no one would criticise you for saying, "I believe it's time for us to go" when you actually mean simply, "It's time for us to go".

However, belief frequently applies to something you are either unsure about or for which there is insufficient proof. For instance, I might say, "I believe that the single currency is a good thing", or "I believe that Wales will win next Saturday". These things may very well be false: the single currency may prove disastrous, and Wales - judging on recent form - may very well lose.

Knowledge, on the other hand, in its strict sense, only applies to things that are true. Therefore, it may be inappropriate to say, "I know that Wales will win" or that "I know which horse will win the 3:30 at Kempton", because there is an element of doubt involved.

[klintistvud]

No one has "facts" in their head, they have beliefs about facts, which can be either true or false.

How do you determine whether a belief is true?

For example: if i say "it's true that the Moon revolves around the Earth", is that a fact or is it a belief of mine about some fact?

If it is the latter, then it is a true belief about the fact "the Moon revolves around the Earth". How do we know that proposition is a fact? Because we consider it true.

So if i say "it's true that the Moon revolves around the Earth", is that a fact or is it a belief of mine about some fact?

[Soldier of FORTRAN]

How do you determine if a belief is true?

Use evidence.

is that a fact or is it a belief of mine about some fact?

That's up to how it is inside your head.

[klintistvud]

How do you determine if a belief is true?

Use evidence.

is that a fact or is it a belief of mine about some fact?

That's up to how it is inside your head.

I was responding to this:

No, "belief" is irrespective of "truth" or "fact". A belief doesn't become a "fact" when it gets adequately confirmed, it becomes a justified true belief, or "knowledge", but knowledge is still a belief, it never ceases to be a belief.

No one has "facts" in their head, they have beliefs about facts, which can be either true or false.

According to the bolded part, you can't have facts in your head.

[Soldier of FORTRAN]

I was responding to this:

According to the bolded part, you can't have facts in your head.

[uolj]

No one has "facts" in their head, they have beliefs about facts, which can be either true or false.

How do you determine whether a belief is true?

For example: if i say "it's true that the Moon revolves around the Earth", is that a fact or is it a belief of mine about some fact?

If it is the latter, then it is a true belief about the fact "the Moon revolves around the Earth". How do we know that proposition is a fact? Because we consider it true.

So if i say "it's true that the Moon revolves around the Earth", is that a fact or is it a belief of mine about some fact?

It's a belief of yours about a fact.

"The Moon revolves around the Earth" is the fact. "The Moon revolves around the Earth is true" is a belief about that fact.*

How do we know a proposition is a fact? I don't know the rigorous definition of fact, but a fact can be true or false. We don't need evidence of the truth of a fact for it to be a fact. "The Sun revolves around the Earth" is a fact. We all believe it is not true.


* Now, often we use the first statement as a shorthand version of the second, so the first one can really be both (and technically the second one can be both if you want to get all meta), but hopefully you get the point.

[klintistvud]

It's a belief of yours about a fact.

"The Moon revolves around the Earth" is the fact. "The Moon revolves around the Earth is true" is a belief about that fact.*

How do we know a proposition is a fact? I don't know the rigorous definition of fact, but a fact can be true or false. We don't need evidence of the truth of a fact for it to be a fact. "The Sun revolves around the Earth" is a fact. We all believe it is not true.

Then you are synonymously using "proposition" and "fact". How do you call a true proposition?

* Now, often we use the first statement as a shorthand version of the second, so the first one can really be both (and technically the second one can be both if you want to get all meta), but hopefully you get the point.

I intentionally didn't use a shorthanded version in the first statement because it could be seen as a proposition without an assigned truth value.