Topic: 2 Good friends, In the grasp of amway

[341gerbig]

They said a year ago that they were both going to be retired by now, making enough money off amway to support themselves.
I asked them last week why they weren't retired, they blamed the market and the economy. Couldn't possibly be the bullshit buisness plan....

Yea, because no one is buying soaps and detergents with the economy in the shitter ... 

Dont tell me you support these people...

[Caffiene]

Dont tell me you support these people...

Hes being sarcastic. ie - Even if the economy is down, it doesnt affect the sort of essentials that Amway sells, so its a poor excuse.

[341gerbig]

Dont tell me you support these people...

Hes being sarcastic. ie - Even if the economy is down, it doesnt affect the sort of essentials that Amway sells, so its a poor excuse.

sweet, in my defence..... well... um.... blonde moment?

[Obsequious]

I've noticed most of these MLMs sell products that they want you to think are exclusive, but that are easily acquired anywhere. Why would I buy acai berry juice for $20 a bottle from an MLM when I can just get if for $5 a bottle at a supermarket?

Sure, they'll have an answer. The acai berry juice they carry in stores is adulterated, and you won't get the full health benefits.

[341gerbig]

I've noticed most of these MLMs sell products that they want you to think are exclusive, but that are easily acquired anywhere. Why would I buy acai berry juice for $20 a bottle from an MLM when I can just get if for $5 a bottle at a supermarket?

Sure, they'll have an answer. The acai berry juice they carry in stores is adulterated, and you won't get the full health benefits.

Dude, its like you are in the car with me!

They couple only drinks a brand of water sold by amway, no tap water, like 4 bottles a day each (they buy from thier own store so they can gain some kind of credit and keep the website open).

They have shown me the pamplet that comes with the water. Its "isotonically balanced" and "95% purer than all other bottled waters" and it is "magnetically polarized". Ive told them about weasel words, ive told them about BS ways that companies market things using words that don't really mean anything, and ive told them about water treatments that companies do to water that don't make the water better.

They understand and agree with everything i say, but yet they still claim the water is better than all other water, and continue to exclusively drink that water. Because amway says the water is the best...

[lukebourassa]

Exactly. I run a one man operation that would be disastrous if even one more person joined (ie there's enough to keep me going, but not much more to go around), and I work with some of the highest profile companies and organisations in the country. That says nothing about earning potential if I went scammer and turned it into a franchise.

Actually that made me think of an interesting refutation of MLM that I hadn't thought of before..  Most companies are down-sizing in a bad economy.. If (X shell company name) was so well run, why would it make sense to ADD more employees right now? I know this isn't perfect, since there are some companies who have expanded their workforce over the past 2-3 years, but it's usually due to some growth demand that's flown under the radar. Are other soap, vitamin, bottled water companies expanding right now?

[Halleyscomet/Wakefield]

Charisma and a willingness to commit fully to a lie win over a lot of people very easily.

That's pretty much why my mother believes Pat Robertson

And lately ive been trying to introduce them to "the caustic soda podcast", just so we can listen to an episode and I can have an hour of peace

May I recommend Skeptoid as well? If you do you can eventually play the following:

MonaVie and Other "Superfruit" Juices

Network Marketing: Call them Network Marketing, Multilevel Marketing, or MLM, these pyramid plans are proven not to work.

Bend Over and Own Your Own Business: Are business opportunities offered for sale truly worth it?

Since your friends are atheists, start off with the episodes debunking religious icons and experiences. Work your way up to the ones debunking MLM scams.

[Halleyscomet/Wakefield]

They understand and agree with everything i say, but yet they still claim the water is better than all other water, and continue to exclusively drink that water. Because amway says the water is the best...

Here we come to the crux of the problem. They have a religious faith in Amway products, not an evidence based one. It's doubtful actual data will sway them at this point. Unless you're motivated by Schadenfreude, getting them to shut up about the scam they're falling for is your best bet.

May I recommend a bit of cruelty? The next time they mention Amway, say something to the effect of "You know what? I'm really tired of the sales pitch. Tell me more when you can afford a new car on what you've earned from Amway."

Whenever they bring up Amway say "Oh, so we're riding in your new car then? No? Since you want to discuss bullshit, let's talk about fertilizer. Which do you think is better, Angus bullshit or Jersey bullshit?"

If they keep talking say, "No, no, I'd rather discuss useful bullshit. Angus or Jersey, which do you prefer?"

[Obsequious]

Back when I was in my early twenties, I was a desk clerk at a hotel that hosted a Primerica convention. I got curious, began asking questions, and the next thing I knew, one of the hotel guests began the process of recruiting me into the Primerica organization. Primerica was/is an MLM that sold mutual funds and life insurance instead of soaps and potions.

Fortunately for me, there was a pretty big barrier to entry, in that you had to get some kind of license from the government to sell insurance. What I should have asked my recruiter earlier on in the process was this: Why should somebody want to pay me a commission to buy a mutual fund when all the financial gurus I hear on the radio are always talking about no-load, i.e., no-commission mutual funds?

Anyway, this Primerica thing didn't get too far, because when you're a kid in your early twenties, your day-to-day life doesn't ever bring you into contact with people who are in the market for life insurance or mutual funds.

[Obsequious]

From that Yelp Talk thread I'd linked to, I would now like to quote myself, describing another of my experiences with MLM:

This reminds me of the time some "recruiter" called me out of the blue, saying she'd gotten my name from a co-worker, asking me to come to the city to interview with her for what I thought was a job. So I went way out of my way, paid for parking, went into their office, and sat down with her. When she said, "we're not into paying people by the hour; we pay for performance" I knew something was up. When she brought out a notebook filled with laminated pictures of water filters, vitamin supplements, and other products, I realized I was being asked to join an MLM pyramid scheme.

I was very pissed. When she realized I was leaving, she insisted that I talk to her "manager," who had an answer for every one of my objections. I was so fucking pissed that I'd wasted five dollars on parking because of these idiots. The company in question was called Equinox, by the way. There was a front-page expose on them in the SF Weekly several years ago, and it was quite a scathing indictment.

The article talked about how Equinox members are encouraged to "fake it to make it," which means doing deceptive things in order to seem wealthier than you are, in order to con new recruits into joining up. The result of this was that there were homeless Equinox reps living in their leased BMWs.

Equinox was a front group, I think for Amway, but I could be mistaken. They've definitely been known to use other names. Fucking assholes. I only wish that when I'd been in their office, I hadn't been so polite about leaving. I should have destroyed something or disrupted the mass-recruitment seminar that was taking place during my "interview."

[daemonowner]

Congrats belgarath. That was awesome.

Personally I would've gone down the line of the medical benefits. Acai trees are kinda useful and the fruits are about as good as any other, but I'm sorry, It's not going to cure your cancer..

(click to show/hide)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22139433
Positive study on 27 rabbits.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21569436
Uncontrolled pilot study of 10 Adults showing preliminary benefits.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21486000
Study of cultured mouse cells showing inhibition of mast cell activation (not a good thing?)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21470042
14 Patient pilot study (uncontrolled) showing statistically significant pain reduction. MonaVie juice was used.

http://qjmed.oxfordjournals.org/content/102/5/341
Antioxidants do not help with Acute Mountain Sickness.

http://jama.ama-assn.org/content/297/8/842
High quality studies correlate antioxidants with higher rates of mortality - Meta-analysis.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0531556510001282
Hypothetically, antioxidants may decrease lifespan.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21411096
Atheroprotective effects of acia juice in mice study.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21386979
Acai hypothesized to have immune response in humans based on cell cultures

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21147193
Acai extract in cigarettes reduced harmful effects in mice.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20838232
Acai helped to prevent metabolic syndrome in mice.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20452390
MonaVie Acai Juice is non-toxic.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20232121
Acai no more effective at preventing tumor growth in mice than other berries. No control.

Studies on cultured cells, mice, rabbits and even insects just doesn't cut it. The two positive studies I found that were done on humans were just pilots, so interesting but way too insubstancial to support any claims of efficacy.

[daemonowner]

A guy I know showed me another one of these schemes, TVI, which has a really cheesy video advertising itself. Not only that, but he stopped his gullible mother from giving them 5k in one go. His mother still gets emails from TVI, and she might still believe in it.
He might still have the account meaning we could get a look at the inside information of what they do and what they sell.

[Obsequious]

It's a damned shame our lawmakers don't have the impetus and will to do a better job of regulating the MLM industry.

[Xptical]

May I recommend a bit of cruelty? The next time they mention Amway, say something to the effect of "You know what? I'm really tired of the sales pitch. Tell me more when you can afford a new car on what you've earned from Amway."

Whenever they bring up Amway say "Oh, so we're riding in your new car then? No? Since you want to discuss bullshit, let's talk about fertilizer. Which do you think is better, Angus bullshit or Jersey bullshit?"

If they keep talking say, "No, no, I'd rather discuss useful bullshit. Angus or Jersey, which do you prefer?"

^This!

People are dumb enough when it comes to their imaginary sky friend.  Add in an actual *real* entity (even if it is an entity trying to screw them (catholic priests aside)) and it gets multiplied.  Just stick to "what have they done for you lately".  What's income vs. overhead?  How much taxable income did they report to the IRS?  What have they bought with their millions so far?

[stretcher]

This should be fraud. I'm angry it's not. My ex's father is literally a millionaire, at least on paper (real estate holdings) but his income is still through the roof compared to the average person. I tried so hard to talk him out of trying it. It took a few years and losses somewhere around 100k before he finally came around.