Author Topic: Episode #345  (Read 4143 times)

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Offline lippard

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Re: Episode #345
« Reply #30 on: Feb 26, 2012, 05:37:14 PM »
It's a pity that Gleick's involvement (and possibly fakery of the summary memo which inflates the importance of Forbes and Gleick in the battles over climate change) has distracted from the John Mashey report which came out the same day and which Rebecca Watson mentioned.  Mashey has done some great work on looking at the social networks of the scientists who argue against anthropogenic climate change, on the plagiarism and dishonesty in the Wegman Report attacking Michael Mann's hockey stick, and now on the funding of fake experts by organizations like Heartland (which really is the moral equivalent of the Tobacco Institute in the climate change debate).

Mashey's reports are all incredibly detailed PDFs:

"Fake Science, Fake Experts, Funny Finances, Free of tax": http://www.desmogblog.com/sites/beta.desmogblog.com/files/fake.pdf (213 pp.)

"Strange Scholarship in the Wegman Report":  http://deepclimate.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/strange-scholarship-v1-02.pdf (250 pp.)

"Science Bypass" (about the signers of the petition to try to get the American Physical Society to reverse itself on anthropogenic global warming): http://www.desmogblog.com/sites/beta.desmogblog.com/files/2009%20science%20bypass%20v3%200.pdf (128 pp.)

Online lonely moa

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Re: Episode #345
« Reply #31 on: Feb 26, 2012, 08:05:24 PM »
I don't think anyone on the podcast has any grip on what physical adventure entails and no idea about controlling one's body in freefall.  I would guess the dollar amount of this well planned skydive will be less than running one F1 car in one race.
“Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so”

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Offline gs

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Re: Episode #345
« Reply #32 on: Feb 26, 2012, 08:34:12 PM »
i lol'd at bobs "time was slower back then."  no one else did though!

Offline Opcn

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Re: Episode #345
« Reply #33 on: Feb 26, 2012, 10:28:01 PM »
It was a bit odd to hear Steve talk about how island dwarfism was a form of insular dwarfism. I say that because Insula is latin for island. So Steve was basically saying that Island dwarfism is a form of island dwarfism.

Offline werecow

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Re: Episode #345
« Reply #34 on: Feb 27, 2012, 12:42:09 AM »
It's a pity that Gleick's involvement (and possibly fakery of the summary memo which inflates the importance of Forbes and Gleick in the battles over climate change) has distracted from the John Mashey report which came out the same day and which Rebecca Watson mentioned.  Mashey has done some great work on looking at the social networks of the scientists who argue against anthropogenic climate change, on the plagiarism and dishonesty in the Wegman Report attacking Michael Mann's hockey stick, and now on the funding of fake experts by organizations like Heartland (which really is the moral equivalent of the Tobacco Institute in the climate change debate).

Yes, good point. He put tons of work into that stuff. His work on the Wegman report was really great.
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Offline Stephen Dawson

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Re: Episode #345
« Reply #35 on: Feb 27, 2012, 05:06:40 AM »
The 'other similar legislation' was nothing of the kind. That was the introduction of a 10% goods and services tax back in the early 2000s as a tradeoff for reducing and eliminating a bunch of other taxes. The only reason it was mentioned in the press release was to contextualise the spending level on the carbon tax advertising program.


They are both advertising for high profile tax legislation changes. I call that pretty similar...

Quote
The 'anti' advertising program was actually about something different. This was in opposition to a proposed mining tax the Australian government was introducing. Nothing to do with CO2, this was intended to fund a new superannuation program.


No, Im talking about the $10 million anti-climate-tax campaign by the Australian Trade and Industry Alliance. The anti-mining-tax campaign was a $22 million campaign from the Business Council of Australia. They both had extensive runs of television ads. See getcarbonpolicyright.com.au


Re the first item, my point is that the earlier advertising program was nothing to do with climate change. As far as I'm concerned, even though I think the Australian Government's climate change policy (in part a tax) is pretty silly, the $12 million in advertising seems perfectly reasonable. You have a new program, you advertise it. Nothing unusual there.

Re the second item, whoops! I did get the two things mixed up. Sorry.

However, as I responded in an earlier comment, my point wasn't so much to tote up the budgets for the different sides to see which has the edge, but to rebut the frequent assumption that all the money (big oil!) is on the sceptic's side.

On that point, today I stumbled across mention of the funding of a body called the Climate Works Foundation. This seems to be a hands-on kind of organisation that gets into all kinds of practical stuff internationally to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. http://www.climateworks.org/

It has received funding from one of its founding organisations of $US100million this year, and $480 million in 2008. http://www.hewlett.org/grants/search?order=field_date_of_award_value&sort=desc&keywords=ClimateWorks&year=&term_node_tid_depth_1=All&program_id=88

While Heartland's $4.4 million may seem formidable in isolation, it pales in comparison. I know, different purposes and all that. But I think that the big-oil-funded-sceptics effectiveness is being vastly overrated.

A comparison with the creationists may be useful. What they have on their side is some funding, some museums, some 'scientific' institutes, and some scientists who either willingly or not are claimed to give them a patina of respectability. Has any of that been effective in drawing the uncommitted into their belief system?

Not directly, I'd submit. It has provided confirmation for those already believing this (probably prompted by their religious beliefs) and provided support to those who use church networks to promote creationism. But for those outside? Little effect, I suspect.

Now imagine if a group of evolutionary biologists were to start making predictions about, say, the evolution of new species. They would be moderate, expressing results within wide uncertainty bands. If, for some reason, the issue became politically important, and media outlets and certain politicised scientists, as often as not non-biologists, started taking the extremes of the predictions, embellishing them, drawing hard predictions, and widely demanding action be taken or else, then what might happen?

Well, by their nature the extremes of projected ranges are actually highly unlikely. The boring stuff in the lumpy bit in the middle of the bell curve is much more likely. The publicised claims scare people initially. But then they fail to eventuate. But more claims have been made in the meantime. And they also fail to eventuate, because they also are extreme, and therefore unlikely. Repeat for a couple of decades, and anyone who pays any attention at all to the news decides that, like celebrity relationships, this is a subject upon which all printed information is totally unreliable.

Ask people at that point to cough up real money to deal with the menace of real evolutionary dangers, and you have problems.
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Offline Shadow Of A Doubt

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Re: Episode #345
« Reply #36 on: Feb 27, 2012, 12:20:30 PM »
I hesitate to subscribe to a thread that's going to fill up with science denying fail but I'm a masochist at heart.

Everyone who doesn't listen to Astronomy Cast should definitely check it out!

Offline Bored Wombat

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Re: Episode #345
« Reply #37 on: Feb 27, 2012, 12:34:21 PM »
While Heartland's $4.4 million may seem formidable in isolation, it pales in comparison. I know, different purposes and all that. But I think that the big-oil-funded-sceptics effectiveness is being vastly overrated.

They have the support of Rupert Murdoch. That is difficult to overrate, and I would say impossible to vastly overrate. Climate science denial pretty much follows in proportion to the amount of the media that Murdoch controls, and follows the demographics that subject themselves to his media.

A comparison with the creationists may be useful. What they have on their side is some funding, some museums, some 'scientific' institutes, and some scientists who either willingly or not are claimed to give them a patina of respectability. Has any of that been effective in drawing the uncommitted into their belief system?

I think a better comparison would be to Heartlands other work with Phillip Morris. The tobacco industry denied that the science was decided on the smoking-cancer link very effectively for 50 years, even though the medical literature was very clear.

The two differences are instead of getting the useful idiots to kill themselves they're getting them to kill everyone, and that the fossil fuel industry is bigger and more profitable than the tobacco industry. I see it as exactly like tobacco-cancer denial, but more so.

Offline uolj

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Re: Episode #345
« Reply #38 on: Feb 27, 2012, 12:54:13 PM »
I hesitate to subscribe to a thread that's going to fill up with science denying fail but I'm a masochist at heart.

If you weren't a masochist, you could always try out the new feature just added to the boards:

Ignore Topics

Offline Shadow Of A Doubt

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Re: Episode #345
« Reply #39 on: Feb 27, 2012, 01:00:25 PM »
I hesitate to subscribe to a thread that's going to fill up with science denying fail but I'm a masochist at heart.

If you weren't a masochist, you could always try out the new feature just added to the boards:

Ignore Topics


Hey that looks great! I'll try that out.  ;D

Offline Splchief

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Re: Episode #345
« Reply #40 on: Feb 27, 2012, 03:03:01 PM »
WTN: Peter Sagal

Offline DrivinWest

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Re: Episode #345
« Reply #41 on: Feb 27, 2012, 04:55:53 PM »
A few years ago I was asked to be part of Felix Baumgartner's "space jump" stunt team. I used to work for NASA and ESA and became friends with a Munich-based BASE jumper who trains Baumgartner for some of his more daring stunts. As my NASA/ESA experience involved life support systems and I have a background in hypo/hyperbarics, they thought I'd be a good fit. I turned it down--my day job was plenty and I knew I'd be moving back to the US long before the jump happened.

One of the issues that wasn't discussed is the lack of mobility that occurs in soft pressure suits. Modern space suits like the US' EMU (Extravehicular Mobility Unit) and Russia's Orlan are only pressurized to 4.3 psi and 5.8 psi respectively. If they were pressurized to standard atmospheric pressure of 14.7 psi the astronauts would be unable to move their arms of fingers. As a result of the low pressure, the astronauts have to breath pure oxygen as the partial pressure of oxygen in air is too low to pass into the bloodstream.

I'm interested to hear how Baumgartner's team is handling the pressure differential issue, especially as you need to have positive pressure for the duration of the fall, and those low psi levels won't cut it below ~30,000 feet.
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Offline Stephen Dawson

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Re: Episode #345
« Reply #42 on: Feb 27, 2012, 07:18:19 PM »
While Heartland's $4.4 million may seem formidable in isolation, it pales in comparison. I know, different purposes and all that. But I think that the big-oil-funded-sceptics effectiveness is being vastly overrated.

They have the support of Rupert Murdoch. That is difficult to overrate, and I would say impossible to vastly overrate. Climate science denial pretty much follows in proportion to the amount of the media that Murdoch controls, and follows the demographics that subject themselves to his media.

A comparison with the creationists may be useful. What they have on their side is some funding, some museums, some 'scientific' institutes, and some scientists who either willingly or not are claimed to give them a patina of respectability. Has any of that been effective in drawing the uncommitted into their belief system?

I think a better comparison would be to Heartlands other work with Phillip Morris. The tobacco industry denied that the science was decided on the smoking-cancer link very effectively for 50 years, even though the medical literature was very clear.

The two differences are instead of getting the useful idiots to kill themselves they're getting them to kill everyone, and that the fossil fuel industry is bigger and more profitable than the tobacco industry. I see it as exactly like tobacco-cancer denial, but more so.

First point, there are lots of possible contributors to weakening public belief in the climate change consensus. These would include the activities of organisations like the Heartland Institute, media content provided by the Murdoch press, and (my guess) disenchantment with decades of failed dire predictions. The extent to which each of these -- and each of innumerable other factors -- contributes is by no means clear.

Second point, my (very limited) understanding of Heartland's involvement with the smoking/cancer link was it was actually on the second-hand smoke/cancer link.
Stephen Dawson
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Offline Stephen Dawson

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Re: Episode #345
« Reply #43 on: Feb 27, 2012, 07:22:42 PM »
A few years ago I was asked to be part of Felix Baumgartner's "space jump" stunt team. I used to work for NASA and ESA and became friends with a Munich-based BASE jumper who trains Baumgartner for some of his more daring stunts. As my NASA/ESA experience involved life support systems and I have a background in hypo/hyperbarics, they thought I'd be a good fit. I turned it down--my day job was plenty and I knew I'd be moving back to the US long before the jump happened.

One of the issues that wasn't discussed is the lack of mobility that occurs in soft pressure suits. Modern space suits like the US' EMU (Extravehicular Mobility Unit) and Russia's Orlan are only pressurized to 4.3 psi and 5.8 psi respectively. If they were pressurized to standard atmospheric pressure of 14.7 psi the astronauts would be unable to move their arms of fingers. As a result of the low pressure, the astronauts have to breath pure oxygen as the partial pressure of oxygen in air is too low to pass into the bloodstream.

I'm interested to hear how Baumgartner's team is handling the pressure differential issue, especially as you need to have positive pressure for the duration of the fall, and those low psi levels won't cut it below ~30,000 feet.

Fascinating about the pressure in the suits. Do they have to step down over time to the lower pressure, like an ascending diver, to avoid decompression sickness? Or is the space vehicle maintained at some intermediate pressure?
Stephen Dawson
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Online lonely moa

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Re: Episode #345
« Reply #44 on: Feb 27, 2012, 10:43:41 PM »
The pressure suit keeps them alive from the getgo, I assume.  I don't think there is any recompression problems.  Kittenger did it 1960 and I would reckon the pressure suit technology has progressed since then. 

What I don't understand is the chat about going into a spin when the skydiver hits the dense atmosphere (wherever) when the pressure gradient would be such that an experienced skydiver should be able to maintain a stable face to earth position as easily as, say, jumping out of a non moving balloon at 3000 metres or base jumping from a cliff. 
“Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so”

Bertrand Russell

 

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