Topic: courtesy and prayer

[stonesean]

Here's a different angle for this though:  My parents are both religious and are not pushy with me or my family so we don't tend to have too much conflict there.  Still, whenever we come over (mainly if my wife isn't there) and eat, my parents pray before eating and as was tradition growing up, hold hands while doing it.  I've no problem sitting back and waiting for them to finish out of respect, but they have taken to reaching out and grasping my and the children's hands while doing it.

I'm positive they are not trying to convert us surreptitiously and that it's probably more habit than statement, but I cannot help but feel awkward when they do it, like it's a symbol for them that there's still "hope" for me and the kids or something.  I've no desire to make a big deal out of it, but I just find it odd.  What would you all do?

I assume holding hands is pretty common method of prayer at the dinner table.  (my family did so)

If that's how they always did it, I wouldn't expect them to do it differently now....

[Calinthalus]

I'd probably go along with it.  It makes them feel better and it does me no harm.  I'm usually very forgiving about the actions of the elderly.  I don't even put up too much fuss if grandparents throw 'nigger' around.  My kids light into my dad over it...but he's approaching 70, there's not much point; he's not going to change now.

[Eternally Learning]

I guess it just feels passively forceful to me if that makes any sense.  It feels like it's symbolic to them or something and while they are getting on in years, they're otherwise fairly thoughtful and intelligent people. 

[WC]

Seriously, at a business meeting?   In the U.S.?  I'd be on the phone to HR before the end of the day.

When others around me are praying, I refrain from eating or doing anything similar, and instead just look around the room for the other heathens.

I'm still shocked at all the groupthink prayers that open sporting events, town hall/city counsel meetings, and public university commencements. Things got messed up last decade. It was hard enough to suffer through the rabid overtones of nationalism, but now public prayers for everything? I'll be in my room until things get uncrazy again.

I went to visit my Mormon family in Nauvoo IL to see them preform in the insanely FABULOUS outdoor musical theater telling of their imaginary, revisionist, history. It was the perfect storm of my pet peeves; national anthem and pledge and Eagle Scout color guard accompanied to Amazing Grace on the bagpipes, followed by Mormon prayers, and more prayers for the health of George W. and a vanquishing of "America's" enemies here and abroad (no shit), and prayers for the victory of the soldiers and the wars, and prayers for the successful performance of the theatrical performance, followed by some kind of loyalty oath/testimony of some people on stage confirmed en masse by the mob audience, followed by a speech where the idiot speaker un-ironically kept quoting Twain (Mormons love to quote Twain, they've obviously never read his writing)... My head exploded before the musical theater performance began.

When people start group praying around me, I just get real quiet and stare straight ahead, politely... Exactly the same way I'm polite about someone's public fart or something.

I do not bow my head.  I do stand for the pledge but I do not put my hand on my heart or recite anything.  I pay my respect to the flag and my country but the pledge is shear b.s.

Ditto. I may or may not remain standing for the anthem, usually not. Hell, I may not even stand for the pledge. It depends on how I feel, i.e. if the people behind me are a physical threat, but sometimes I welcome the threat.

[amysrevenge]

Reminds me of when I went with a friend to a Home Depot job fair.

The event opened with a speaker, who hit all the talking points you'd expect about community, benefits, atmosphere, etc.  Fine, whatever.

Then a group of "real store employees" came out and did this little chant that they supposedly start work with each day, and it went on and on and on and was loud and excited to a level of sincerity that you just can't fake.

My friend and I looked at each other without a word, got up, and left.

[Vincegamer]

Eternally,
With my extended family - who are all Catholic - I have been in a similar situation. If I'm not quick enough to exit the room before the prayer I stand quietly and don't take anyone's hand.
With family I am willing to put up with more and give more respect than with a bunch of strangers who, frankly, being lawyers should know better.

[Calinthalus]

Reminds me of when I went with a friend to a Home Depot job fair.

The event opened with a speaker, who hit all the talking points you'd expect about community, benefits, atmosphere, etc.  Fine, whatever.

Then a group of "real store employees" came out and did this little chant that they supposedly start work with each day, and it went on and on and on and was loud and excited to a level of sincerity that you just can't fake.

My friend and I looked at each other without a word, got up, and left.

I was on a business trip to Little Rock last year some time.  My PM and I were probably the only non-Walmart employees on the plane.  There had been some kind of cult meeting at the headquarters and there were literally 20-30 proud Walmart employees flying home.

Right there in the plane, they broke out in some kind of chant/song/thing after landing.  It was downright weird.

[Eternally Learning]

Eternally,
With my extended family - who are all Catholic - I have been in a similar situation. If I'm not quick enough to exit the room before the prayer I stand quietly and don't take anyone's hand.
With family I am willing to put up with more and give more respect than with a bunch of strangers who, frankly, being lawyers should know better.

Definitely a good point about the lawyers knowing better.  With my family though, I feel the closeness actually works to make it a worse offense as they are very aware of my lack of belief and yet they still seem intent on drawing me into their rituals.  Don't get me wrong, I'm not angry and I don't think they are doing out of anything but love and misdirection, but at the same time it still makes me feel uncomfortable.

[MikeHz]

I'm a moment of silence kind of guy.

[stonesean]

I'm a moment of silence kind of guy.

I find nothing objectionable at all about a moment of silent reflection.

I think they are often quite fitting for the occasion they are called for....

[EmergentSystem]

If you are at a business lunch, and they start with a prayer, is it rude to sit or to continue eating through the prayer?

If you already have food in your mouth?  I'd say keep chewing.......

But the real question is this:  why should the person they're excluding have to be 'respectful' of the fact that they're being excluded?

Well, this is what all forms of etiquette are. Excluding non-adherents. If I were to start screaming profanities at you (or whatever, insert perceived disrespectful behaviour here) then you'd probably demand I be a little more respectful, or want to exclude me for not adhering to your preferred social niceties if I refuse to do so.

We may disagree with the premises they hold that make this behaviour rude to them, but it's no less rude, in context, because of it.

That being said, sometimes it's appropriate to be rude and disrespectful. I wouldn't consider a situation like Vince's something I'd make a stink over though. I'd 'endure' it in silence and probably comment upon it if/when I felt it more appropriate.

[AxeGrrl]

Every office luncheon I attend begins with a prayer.  We have a pot luck type thing every month and a couple of big dinners a year.

You know, it's fascinating hearing these things......this must be an American thing, eh?

Because I have literally never witnessed any work meeting, any group event (whether work-related or not) that began with any type of prayer.  NEVER.  In my entire life.

[Anders]

My family are strict worshippers of Nerull (The Reaper, the Foe of All Good, the Hater of Life, the Bringer of Darkness) so we take one of the neighbors' kids, slice him open and drink his blood as an apéritif.  They've been eyeing me hungrily ever since I declared my atheism...

[PANTS!]

Hmmm...  You know enthusiastic chanting has always made me squirm.  Even to the point where an entertainer does it.  "Is everybody having a good time?  I can't hear YOU!"  (Except when the pirate on sponge bob does it, but that clearly is a parody).  So maybe this is why I turned away from my faith.  Mindless unquestioning seems like such a terrible life.  I think it actually actively disgusts me.

[AxeGrrl]

If you are at a business lunch, and they start with a prayer, is it rude to sit or to continue eating through the prayer?

If you already have food in your mouth?  I'd say keep chewing.......

But the real question is this:  why should the person they're excluding have to be 'respectful' of the fact that they're being excluded?

Well, this is what all forms of etiquette are. Excluding non-adherents. If I were to start screaming profanities at you (or whatever, insert perceived disrespectful behaviour here) then you'd probably demand I be a little more respectful, or want to exclude me for not adhering to your preferred social niceties if I refuse to do so.

I don't think this is quite the same thing.  A better analogy would be if most of a group started speaking a foreign language for a minute or so, knowing that not everyone in the group speaks the language.  It's engaging in something that's supposed to be a 'collective' thing, but isn't really.

A group can do a type of, say, 'toast' or something to start off a group activity.....that wouldn't make any presumptions about people's personal beliefs and pretty much fulfill the same function.