Topic: courtesy and prayer

[WC]

Your firstborn, Wicked C?  Very funny. 

Thank you, thank you. I'll be here all week.

Actually, T Minus 60 hours. Balls in your court Canada. Oh god, I'll stop.

[Jim S]

You know, it's fascinating hearing these things......this must be an American thing, eh?

Because I have literally never witnessed any work meeting, any group event (whether work-related or not) that began with any type of prayer.  NEVER.  In my entire life.

(click to show/hide)

This.  I've worked 8 years in Canada and 7 in the U.S.  This stuff was common in the mid-west and southern U.S., but I would kind of  like to see what would happen if someone started a prayer at a Canadian business function;   I am sure that people would not be respectful, including other religious people; public displays of religion are simply unacceptable by our societal standards.

Though I  suppose I can kind of guess what the reaction would be based on a similar experience:

The weirdest experience in my career occurred when an American senior engineer came up to our Canadian office for a meeting.  At lunch (in the meeting room) he made some sort of "we all need to be right with God" type statement, to which this room full of Canadian engineers reacted by just staring at him as if he had just completed a diatribe on his sympathy for Hitler.  They were simply stunned. 

I jumped down his throat and halted the meeting for two hours while we debated Evolution, God, Global Warming, source of morals etc.

I know my co-workers would rather I had just let it go because this guy is the expert on the technology we were discussing and we only had him for a few hours...yet, not one person asked me to stop and I was the most junior person by probably 20 years.

Yes, I'm still employed. 

Pwnage is fun to watch.

[Jolimont]

I think it's rude to eat through a prayer and I also think it's rude to pray at a business meeting, but I've seen plenty of business praying having  lived in UT for 18 years. My limits were I won't be the one saying the prayer, I won't kneel, I won't hold hands, I won't close my eyes, or bow my head. But I do stand there quietly and wait for the insanity to pass.

[WC]

UT, eh? 18 years you say? 17 years there myself, more or less. I especially enjoy the meeting of the eyes with fellow like minded folks while the Mormons speak in their Mormon inflections and tones and their distinct defeated sounding "sing song" droning, as they go through the motions of reciting incantations to their Heavenly Blah Blah Blah.

I also live by the "my house my rules" guideline for civil society, and completely avoid the houses of lunatics altogether, except for those exceptionally rare times, usually after a death. I am polite, and patient, and quiet. But I do not bow, kneel, recite pledges, stand, sing, etc... i.e. I behave like a civilized person in polite company. Thing about Mormons is, they don't realize they are testing your patience or violating your boundaries, and the words "no" and "no thanks" and "keep it you yourself" do not compute to them.

The secular side of the family was granted permission to visit my young "elder" brother on his mission in Long Beach in '02, and I did completely snap at him and his companion over lunch in a restaurant one day. My mum and grandma were bending over backwards to accommodate his new found Mormon crap out of fear of losing him forever... Anyway, lunch was on my mum, and the tab was gonna be a astronomical... And as the food came out, the "elders" decided to, uninvited mind you,  give a blessing. I bit my tongue... Until they got to the part where they were thanking "Heavenly Father" "for this meal" etc... I went nuclear, I interrupted and gave them a thrashing. I told them they needed to thank Mum for this meal, and not their invisible made up celestial sky daddy, and how dare they force their visitors into their bullshit incantations in a public and neutral place, and how detestable and rude and mindless it was to just assume that we were willing to suffer it, and how insulting that was. Their Mormon bullshit, mind you, we actually find outrageous and unequivocally detestable and abhorrent. The "elders" went to find their own table, and I was shot daggers from my mum as she went to join them, but a thankful pat on the back came from my grandmother, who's patience had been long suffering with the Mormons, and my baby brother patted me on the shoulder too; he had had enough as well (the day before the three of them were trapped in the LA Temple visitor center, in a high pressure sales situation with the "elders" and a dozen sisters, and weren't allowed to leave the room for three hours... Followed by two more hours of videos and more videos, and more high pressure mobbing and psychological torture. They were frayed after that. I knew better... I wandered around the grounds chain smoking instead).

Hmm. What do I do that is customary, generally?... I guess I remove my hat in the presence of survivors of the deceased, out of respect for the survivors. That's just a cultural norm, general etiquette. Why other men, pious god fearing men, remove their hats is beyond me, some kind of show of piety I think. But I also take my hat off when I formally enter a host's building, private or public, because that's just good manners. Wait, I don't really wear hats anymore. Used to. Not ball caps, but real hats. Oh, in the winter, in UT, caps are necessary, IMO. I'm fine with people saying "bless you" when I sneeze. I, however, say gesundheit. I'm pretty mellow generally, and only really get upset when I feel like I'm being put upon, in a high pressure sales environment (cult recruiting or obnoxious religious people pushing their wares on me, or when new agers or PoMos start dribbling their brains everywhere and I can't find a polite moment to excuse myself.), or when I feel like my physical safety is at risk for not complying. I actually go pretend to take a piss during creepy loyalty oaths to flags and anthems when I feel especially threatened by the mob around me.

I do, however, stand up to conservatives, GOPers, wingers, fundies, hate radio enthusiasts and all manner of bullies at all hours and in all places.  As well as libertarians when their special pet ideologies start to impair their grasp on reality, which is when their libertarianism begins to grate my nerves. But this is neither here nor there.

Give us back Shatner and we'll talk. 

I will totally go stuff him in a sack and rough him up a bit... Well, a little bit more than a bit, you understand, and haul him to the border.

[AxeGrrl]

The weirdest experience in my career occurred when an American senior engineer came up to our Canadian office for a meeting.  At lunch (in the meeting room) he made some sort of "we all need to be right with God" type statement, to which this room full of Canadian engineers reacted by just staring at him as if he had just completed a diatribe on his sympathy for Hitler.  They were simply stunned. 

Exactly!

Hearing about all these group-prayer type situations in the US is almost like watching an episode of South Park or something to us

[Vincegamer]

When my family has been my guests, they will stop and pray before they eat even though I don't initiate it and I just dig in. I can't stop them from praying in my house so they won't force me to pray in theirs.

[WC]

When my family has been my guests, they will stop and pray before they eat even though I don't initiate it and I just dig in. I can't stop them from praying in my house so they won't force me to pray in theirs.

I do tell my Mormon guests, after I prepare a meal for them in my own home, that they are not permitted to do their holy moly business at my table or in my company in my home. Sometimes I preemptively tell them, and I tell them I'm fine with them taking a moment of silence or something, sometimes I have to interrupt them when they offer a blessing. Out of state Mormons are totally fine with it, and move on, as they are used to the real world. In state Mormons look at me is I have just gone insane, and they boggle at me as they try to figure out what is happening.

[no-en]

.

[Vincegamer]

I think that a letter to the president of the bar association is an appropriate response. I have written a first draft and welcome any comments or input.

(click to show/hide)

Dear Mr. Quinn,

   I am writing to express the anger, embarrassment, and great discomfort I experienced at this month’s Bar Luncheon. I have been a member of the bar association since 2005 and since going solo last year I have attended several Bar Luncheons and find them very congenial and educational. March was different.

   The March meeting began well. I was a few minutes early and had some time to chat with other members of the Bar and meet several other attorneys. We took our seats on time and food began circulating. When the official portion of the luncheon began, everyone stood for the Pledge of Allegiance. I stood in respect to my country and out of personal patriotism, though I exercised my right of conscience and did not recite the pledge on moral grounds. After the pledge, I and those around me began to sit but were asked to remain standing for a prayer.

   I found myself in a very uncomfortable position, unsure how to act. As one who objects on moral grounds to public prayer, I felt excluded and yet as a fairly new member of the county’s legal community, I did not want to risk creating an unwelcome impression on any of those around me. I realize that the Bar Association of Montgomery County, Maryland is not an arm of the government and not subject to the restraints imposed by the First Amendment of the United States Constitution. However I think a public prayer in such a coercive environment is contrary to the Core Values of the Bar, as expressed on the Bar’s website:

INTEGRITY: Doing the right thing in every circumstance; demonstrating tolerance, respect and civility in interactions with our fellow members and in the pursuit of all personal and professional endeavors; promoting honesty and fair dealing in all our actions.
 
EQUALITY: The equitable, equal and fair treatment of all members; the encouragement of diversity in the Association, and support for disparate practices; being inclusive and respectful of the ideas, personal values and circumstances of every member; and assuring equal access to the rights, privileges and benefits of membership.
 

Asking everyone to stand and pray in a situation that discourages choice and does not consider the views and deeply held convictions of the minority is not inclusive, does not support diversity, and is not doing the right thing.

   I have searched the Bar’s website and could not find anything about an invocation, whether to expect one, or how to apply to give one. If an invocation is normal practice, then as an ordained clergy member and a lawyer I would be interested in applying to give a non-religious and inclusive invocation; though, my preference would be that no invocation be made, so that no member feel excluded or pressured to act against his conscience.

[WC]

Here's a different angle for this though:  My parents are both religious and are not pushy with me or my family so we don't tend to have too much conflict there.  Still, whenever we come over (mainly if my wife isn't there) and eat, my parents pray before eating and as was tradition growing up, hold hands while doing it.  I've no problem sitting back and waiting for them to finish out of respect, but they have taken to reaching out and grasping my and the children's hands while doing it.

I'm positive they are not trying to convert us surreptitiously and that it's probably more habit than statement, but I cannot help but feel awkward when they do it, like it's a symbol for them that there's still "hope" for me and the kids or something.  I've no desire to make a big deal out of it, but I just find it odd.  What would you all do?

I'd say "I feel very uncomfortable when you try to include me and my children in your prayers without our permission. Please don't do that. My wife and I have talked about this and we would like it if you respected our choices just as we respect yours. Love ya."

My stepmom texted me the other year, out of the blue, and offered to have the entire cast of the Nauvoo Pageant in the Joseph Smith bunk house (think Jonestown) pray for me, or put my name up on the board in the Celestial Room in the Nauvoo Temple for the Endowment Ceremony participants to include in their personal prayers (the Celestial Room being on the top floor and therefore more clearly audible to Heavenly Father). This was back when I was extremely ill with a number of serious medical problems. I told her that she and my dad could actually do something and help me with my hospital and doctor visits, and with my medicines and procedures. She said she would rather have her cronies pray for me. I indicated something about how cheap talk is, and how insulting she was, and how serious my medical problems were. Never heard back.

They are an extremely wealthy family, my Dad and his new family. I've never been and will never be entitled to financilal support, or any kind of support, lest I investigate with the "elders" and choose to convert and get baptized and remain in good standing; as my dad put it once, so very unfortunately, "when you become a member, we will... er, I mean, 'God' will provide you with 'opportunities'..."

My brother, on his mission, suggested I have our dad use holy oils and the laying of hands to cure my Keratoconus. I was dumbstruck and blinked at him as if he was stupid.

You know what is actually effective for my medical disabilities? Medicine. Expensive inaccessible cost prohibitive medicine and treatment.

I've amended my last will and testament to absolutely bar any level of participation by my Mormon relatives in the event of my death, on principle alone. They are and will always be egregiously indignant and disrespectful and hideously monstrous in life, it's programed into them. They are no longer welcome in my life and are now not permitted access to my death.

They will, nonetheless, postmortem baptize my dead ass bones, despite my wishes. The level of disrespect is disgusting. Shocking really, these Mormons. They should be treated accordingly, IMO.

[amysrevenge]

I think that a letter to the president of the bar association is an appropriate response. I have written a first draft and welcome any comments or input.

(click to show/hide)

Dear Mr. Quinn,

   I am writing to express the anger, embarrassment, and great discomfort I experienced at this month’s Bar Luncheon. I have been a member of the bar association since 2005 and since going solo last year I have attended several Bar Luncheons and find them very congenial and educational. March was different.

   The March meeting began well. I was a few minutes early and had some time to chat with other members of the Bar and meet several other attorneys. We took our seats on time and food began circulating. When the official portion of the luncheon began, everyone stood for the Pledge of Allegiance. I stood in respect to my country and out of personal patriotism, though I exercised my right of conscience and did not recite the pledge on moral grounds. After the pledge, I and those around me began to sit but were asked to remain standing for a prayer.

   I found myself in a very uncomfortable position, unsure how to act. As one who objects on moral grounds to public prayer, I felt excluded and yet as a fairly new member of the county’s legal community, I did not want to risk creating an unwelcome impression on any of those around me. I realize that the Bar Association of Montgomery County, Maryland is not an arm of the government and not subject to the restraints imposed by the First Amendment of the United States Constitution. However I think a public prayer in such a coercive environment is contrary to the Core Values of the Bar, as expressed on the Bar’s website:

INTEGRITY: Doing the right thing in every circumstance; demonstrating tolerance, respect and civility in interactions with our fellow members and in the pursuit of all personal and professional endeavors; promoting honesty and fair dealing in all our actions.

EQUALITY: The equitable, equal and fair treatment of all members; the encouragement of diversity in the Association, and support for disparate practices; being inclusive and respectful of the ideas, personal values and circumstances of every member; and assuring equal access to the rights, privileges and benefits of membership.


Asking everyone to stand and pray in a situation that discourages choice and does not consider the views and deeply held convictions of the minority is not inclusive, does not support diversity, and is not doing the right thing.

   I have searched the Bar’s website and could not find anything about an invocation, whether to expect one, or how to apply to give one. If an invocation is normal practice, then as an ordained clergy member and a lawyer I would be interested in applying to give a non-religious and inclusive invocation; though, my preference would be that no invocation be made, so that no member feel excluded or pressured to act against his conscience.

 

Just the way I like it - nondickish.

[no-en]

.

[WC]

Well, that's precisely my point. Their behavior can not be modified, and their dickishness is unstoppable, and is often the case; frustratingly unavoidable. So I say, treat em like the dicks that they are.*

Perhaps you can reason with the members of some other cult or a more mainstream religion. Mormons are hopeless, and infinitely offensive and insufferable.

It most certainly does not harm me to treat inappropriately behaving and out of line people accordingly. Quite the contrary.

*Never mind my hyperbole. My position is this; no free passes, no religious card, no respect for crazy shit, no kids gloves etc, everyone minds their ps and qs, and everyone keeps their crazy shit to themselves. No dishonesty to outsiders. No more apologetics. No more disconnection practices. No more ingroup language. Period. They also need to cease all proselytizing and missionary work, cease and desist all proxy baptisms of the dead, and respect the wishes of others to be left alone. If they want to be treated like a mainstream religion, then they need to cut the destructive cult crap. If you think you can reason with a Mormon, or explain the rules of polite company or civil society to them, I say go for it. Knock yourself out...

[TheIrreverend]

Every office luncheon I attend begins with a prayer.  We have a pot luck type thing every month and a couple of big dinners a year.

You know, it's fascinating hearing these things......this must be an American thing, eh?

Because I have literally never witnessed any work meeting, any group event (whether work-related or not) that began with any type of prayer.  NEVER.  In my entire life.

It's not exclusively American; remember this?  http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/story/2011/02/17/saguenay-raises-money.html

[random poet]

Every office luncheon I attend begins with a prayer.  We have a pot luck type thing every month and a couple of big dinners a year.

You know, it's fascinating hearing these things......this must be an American thing, eh?

Because I have literally never witnessed any work meeting, any group event (whether work-related or not) that began with any type of prayer.  NEVER.  In my entire life.

It's not exclusively American; remember this?  http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/story/2011/02/17/saguenay-raises-money.html

Shit. Just when I was fixing to post some mocking comment about statesiders, and how much better we have it up here, you go and post THAT.

Damn those stupid hicks.

In MOST places around here there are no prayers before meetings or meals. If you were to propose one, you'd get stunned compliance or outright mockery, depending on who's in attendance. Anyway, I've never been subjected to it.

I'm thinking the polite way to handle it is to just sit or stand quietly. From time to time I have to attend mass for a funeral or wedding, and I just sit it out.