Topic: courtesy and prayer

[Vincegamer]

If you are at a business lunch, and they start with a prayer, is it rude to sit or to continue eating through the prayer?

Is it respectful to open a professional group meeting with a prayer, given there are likely unbelievers in the group?

[Jim S]

Seriously, at a business meeting?   In the U.S.?  I'd be on the phone to HR before the end of the day.

When others around me are praying, I refrain from eating or doing anything similar, and instead just look around the room for the other heathens. 

[Hanes]

Ya not really worth anything to clatter around with your food while they're trying to talk to themselves.  I'm in Jim's camp.  Also, really?  In the US?  What state?

[Vincegamer]

It's not an employment thing.  I guess I just have to be specific about my experience.

I was at a county bar association luncheon.  It was bad enough I stood for the Pledge of Allegiance but I just skipped the under God and when I was about to sit the association president asked us to please stay standing while we pray, and some guy in the crowd said a prayer.  As we'd started eating before the pledge, I just picked up my bread and drink and ate while he was praying but it was very distressing. However, the bar association is not really a governmental organization. It's more like a trade group. If it were a court meeting and the judge started with a prayer you can bet I'd be writing a letter of complaint, but here I'm trying to decide if it fits the bar association's published "Core Values": 

INTEGRITY: Doing the right thing in every circumstance; demonstrating tolerance, respect and civility in interactions with our fellow members and in the pursuit of all personal and professional endeavors; promoting honesty and fair dealing in all our actions.
 

EQUALITY: The equitable, equal and fair treatment of all members; the encouragement of diversity in the Association, and support for disparate practices; being inclusive and respectful of the ideas, personal values and circumstances of every member; and assuring equal access to the rights, privileges and benefits of membership.

[Jim S]

Yeah, it doesn't seem to fit (at all) with that equality clause in particular.   

Is it a fight you want to have?  With a bunch of lawyers?   

[Boßel]

When others around me are praying, I refrain from eating or doing anything similar, and instead just look around the room for the other heathens.

This is what I do as well. It's nice to catch the eye of another heathen and just roll our eyes with each other.

[lonely moa]

Another good reason to live in Godzone.

[James]

It's not an employment thing.  I guess I just have to be specific about my experience.

I was at a county bar association luncheon.  It was bad enough I stood for the Pledge of Allegiance but I just skipped the under God and when I was about to sit the association president asked us to please stay standing while we pray, and some guy in the crowd said a prayer.  As we'd started eating before the pledge, I just picked up my bread and drink and ate while he was praying but it was very distressing. However, the bar association is not really a governmental organization. It's more like a trade group. If it were a court meeting and the judge started with a prayer you can bet I'd be writing a letter of complaint, but here I'm trying to decide if it fits the bar association's published "Core Values": 

INTEGRITY: Doing the right thing in every circumstance; demonstrating tolerance, respect and civility in interactions with our fellow members and in the pursuit of all personal and professional endeavors; promoting honesty and fair dealing in all our actions.
 

EQUALITY: The equitable, equal and fair treatment of all members; the encouragement of diversity in the Association, and support for disparate practices; being inclusive and respectful of the ideas, personal values and circumstances of every member; and assuring equal access to the rights, privileges and benefits of membership.

I think you should have just sat down, you said you were already eating so you could have just continued or wait for them to sit and start eating together.  By standing you conveyed a message of compliance so why would they ever think there is a problem?

Sitting is definitely not rude as you don't have to participate in anything you don't want to and it would have allowed other non-believers to follow suit.  Maybe one other would have sat down too, and at the next meeting 5 people, then 10, etc.

Skeptics should want people to follow the evidence, by going along with it to be nice you are not making them question their beliefs at all

[AxeGrrl]

If you are at a business lunch, and they start with a prayer, is it rude to sit or to continue eating through the prayer?

If you already have food in your mouth?  I'd say keep chewing.......

But the real question is this:  why should the person they're excluding have to be 'respectful' of the fact that they're being excluded?

Is it respectful to open a professional group meeting with a prayer, given there are likely unbelievers in the group?

I'm assuming you put this out there as a rhetorical question?   Of course it's NOT respectful.  It's presumptuous and insensitive.

[stonesean]

I've experienced this often at military retirements.

Some folks choose to have an invocation and benediction.

Some folks don't.

If I'm attending the retirement of someone I respect, and they have such things, I usually bow my head and say nothing during the prayers.

[Xptical]

I've experienced this often at military retirements.

Some folks choose to have an invocation and benediction.

Some folks don't.

If I'm attending the retirement of someone I respect, and they have such things, I usually bow my head and say nothing during the prayers.

In the USAF, there is a prayer (usually to a creator or father) before *every* ceremony.  If I ever get around to getting a promotion, I'm going to find a local Pastafarian to do the opening and maybe an extremist Muslim to give the closing.  Should be interesting.

Or, maybe it's just time for me to cut my losses and move to Canada.  Anyone have information on becoming a Canadian?  Or maybe Brazilian.  Yeah, Brazil.  They have the best waxes...

[Calinthalus]

Every office luncheon I attend begins with a prayer.  We have a pot luck type thing every month and a couple of big dinners a year.

My HR department is the wife of one of the two owners of the company.  I stand quietly and lower my eyes out of courtesy for their shared delusion.  It's always the same platitudes...thanks for the food, thanks for the good year, please help everyone here have a safe and good week/day/year/whatever.  It's all kind and nice, so there's not point in complaining.  At the big dinners we eat and then hand out bonus checks...it's a good day with or without the prayer.

[Eternally Learning]

It's always the same platitudes...thanks for the food, thanks for the good year, please help everyone here have a safe and good week/day/year/whatever.  It's all kind and nice, so there's not point in complaining.

This for me is why I'm respectful and remain quiet.  They are free to engage in whatever religion they want and the prayers offered publicly are all but indistinguishable from simply reflecting on what we have and expressing our hopes for what we'd like to have.  I'm used to being the odd duck out, and most times there's no benefit to be gained from me pointing out I don't share their views.

Vince, for your situation maybe you could just write them a letter pointing out the discrepancy between what their values are and what they do and then simply suggest that instead of taking everyone's participation in prayer for granted, they just invite anyone who'd like to participate to remain standing.

[Skeptress]

I remain quiet and have taught my children to do the same.  I do not bow my head.  I do stand for the pledge but I do not put my hand on my heart or recite anything.  I pay my respect to the flag and my country but the pledge is shear b.s.

[Eternally Learning]

Here's a different angle for this though:  My parents are both religious and are not pushy with me or my family so we don't tend to have too much conflict there.  Still, whenever we come over (mainly if my wife isn't there) and eat, my parents pray before eating and as was tradition growing up, hold hands while doing it.  I've no problem sitting back and waiting for them to finish out of respect, but they have taken to reaching out and grasping my and the children's hands while doing it.

I'm positive they are not trying to convert us surreptitiously and that it's probably more habit than statement, but I cannot help but feel awkward when they do it, like it's a symbol for them that there's still "hope" for me and the kids or something.  I've no desire to make a big deal out of it, but I just find it odd.  What would you all do?