Topic: courtesy and prayer

[D'oh!]

I think that a letter to the president of the bar association is an appropriate response. I have written a first draft and welcome any comments or input.

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Dear Mr. Quinn,

   I am writing to express the anger, embarrassment, and great discomfort I experienced at this month’s Bar Luncheon. I have been a member of the bar association since 2005 and since going solo last year I have attended several Bar Luncheons and find them very congenial and educational. March was different.

   The March meeting began well. I was a few minutes early and had some time to chat with other members of the Bar and meet several other attorneys. We took our seats on time and food began circulating. When the official portion of the luncheon began, everyone stood for the Pledge of Allegiance. I stood in respect to my country and out of personal patriotism, though I exercised my right of conscience and did not recite the pledge on moral grounds. After the pledge, I and those around me began to sit but were asked to remain standing for a prayer.

   I found myself in a very uncomfortable position, unsure how to act. As one who objects on moral grounds to public prayer, I felt excluded and yet as a fairly new member of the county’s legal community, I did not want to risk creating an unwelcome impression on any of those around me. I realize that the Bar Association of Montgomery County, Maryland is not an arm of the government and not subject to the restraints imposed by the First Amendment of the United States Constitution. However I think a public prayer in such a coercive environment is contrary to the Core Values of the Bar, as expressed on the Bar’s website:

INTEGRITY: Doing the right thing in every circumstance; demonstrating tolerance, respect and civility in interactions with our fellow members and in the pursuit of all personal and professional endeavors; promoting honesty and fair dealing in all our actions.

EQUALITY: The equitable, equal and fair treatment of all members; the encouragement of diversity in the Association, and support for disparate practices; being inclusive and respectful of the ideas, personal values and circumstances of every member; and assuring equal access to the rights, privileges and benefits of membership.


Asking everyone to stand and pray in a situation that discourages choice and does not consider the views and deeply held convictions of the minority is not inclusive, does not support diversity, and is not doing the right thing.

   I have searched the Bar’s website and could not find anything about an invocation, whether to expect one, or how to apply to give one. If an invocation is normal practice, then as an ordained clergy member and a lawyer I would be interested in applying to give a non-religious and inclusive invocation; though, my preference would be that no invocation be made, so that no member feel excluded or pressured to act against his conscience.

 

Just the way I like it - nondickish.

I agree with amysrevenge.  The tone is reasonable without sounding angry or whiny.  I also like how you volunteered to give an inclusive invocation.

Minor grammatical stuff: 

Either lose the paragraph indentations, or don't forget to indent the one beginning "Asking everyone to stand..."

And "After the pledge, I and those around me began to sit" reads a little clunky.  Normally, you put yourself last, but "those around me and I" sounds no better.  How about, "After the pledge, those atendees nearby and I..."?

[WC]

How about, "many around me, including myself, began to..."

[D'oh!]

Even better!

[AxeGrrl]

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Every office luncheon I attend begins with a prayer.  We have a pot luck type thing every month and a couple of big dinners a year.

You know, it's fascinating hearing these things......this must be an American thing, eh?

Because I have literally never witnessed any work meeting, any group event (whether work-related or not) that began with any type of prayer.  NEVER.  In my entire life.

It's not exclusively American; remember this?  http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/story/2011/02/17/saguenay-raises-money.html

Oh of course religious nuttiness isn't exclusive to the United States......

but how many of you Americans can say that you've never EVER witnessed a group (professional/work-related or otherwise) lead an activity with a prayer?

I, and my closest circle of friends, can say that.

Literally never.

[Vincegamer]

I agree with amysrevenge.  The tone is reasonable without sounding angry or whiny.  I also like how you volunteered to give an inclusive invocation.

Minor grammatical stuff: 

Either lose the paragraph indentations, or don't forget to indent the one beginning "Asking everyone to stand..."

And "After the pledge, I and those around me began to sit" reads a little clunky.  Normally, you put yourself last, but "those around me and I" sounds no better.  How about, "After the pledge, those atendees nearby and I..."?

"Asking everyone to stand...." is not a separate paragraph, it's the conclusion of the existing paragraph. The quoted text above is an inset box quote in the original but the formatting did not come through.
I agree the last bit is clunky. It was even worse the first way I wrote it (commenced to resume our seats or somesuch).

How about, "many around me, including myself, began to..."

That would be grammatically worse since "myself" is the reflexive subject form of the first person (I pinched myself, I commended myself, I nominated myself) and the proper direct subjective form of first person is "me".  But then you have "around me, including me" which points out that "around me" can't possibly include me. I can't be around myself.
I could say "as those in my vicinity started to sit, we were asked..." because "those in my vicinity" impliedly includes me and "we" expressly includes me and there's no reflexive problem.

Better yet I can just say "as we began to sit..." which serves to show it was not just I who was surprised by the request, without excluding the possibility that some people remained standing.

[Eternally Learning]

Here's a different angle for this though:  My parents are both religious and are not pushy with me or my family so we don't tend to have too much conflict there.  Still, whenever we come over (mainly if my wife isn't there) and eat, my parents pray before eating and as was tradition growing up, hold hands while doing it.  I've no problem sitting back and waiting for them to finish out of respect, but they have taken to reaching out and grasping my and the children's hands while doing it.

I'm positive they are not trying to convert us surreptitiously and that it's probably more habit than statement, but I cannot help but feel awkward when they do it, like it's a symbol for them that there's still "hope" for me and the kids or something.  I've no desire to make a big deal out of it, but I just find it odd.  What would you all do?

I'd say "I feel very uncomfortable when you try to include me and my children in your prayers without our permission. Please don't do that. My wife and I have talked about this and we would like it if you respected our choices just as we respect yours. Love ya."

The thing is we've kinda had that discussion already and for a while they didn't do it, but then it just started happening again.  It's one of those things where I feel like it could either be some sort of subtle power-play or it could be just plain forgetfulness.  It doesn't harm me or the kids, but it makes me feel bad too.  IDK, I probably just will leave it be.

[EhJayArr]

(click to show/hide)

Every office luncheon I attend begins with a prayer.  We have a pot luck type thing every month and a couple of big dinners a year.

You know, it's fascinating hearing these things......this must be an American thing, eh?

Because I have literally never witnessed any work meeting, any group event (whether work-related or not) that began with any type of prayer.  NEVER.  In my entire life.

It's not exclusively American; remember this?  http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/story/2011/02/17/saguenay-raises-money.html

Oh of course religious nuttiness isn't exclusive to the United States......

but how many of you Americans can say that you've never EVER witnessed a group (professional/work-related or otherwise) lead an activity with a prayer?

I, and my closest circle of friends, can say that.

Literally never.

I'm seriously jealous... I've experienced that many dozens of times.

Here's a different angle for this though:  My parents are both religious and are not pushy with me or my family so we don't tend to have too much conflict there.  Still, whenever we come over (mainly if my wife isn't there) and eat, my parents pray before eating and as was tradition growing up, hold hands while doing it.  I've no problem sitting back and waiting for them to finish out of respect, but they have taken to reaching out and grasping my and the children's hands while doing it.

I'm positive they are not trying to convert us surreptitiously and that it's probably more habit than statement, but I cannot help but feel awkward when they do it, like it's a symbol for them that there's still "hope" for me and the kids or something.  I've no desire to make a big deal out of it, but I just find it odd.  What would you all do?

I'd say "I feel very uncomfortable when you try to include me and my children in your prayers without our permission. Please don't do that. My wife and I have talked about this and we would like it if you respected our choices just as we respect yours. Love ya."

The thing is we've kinda had that discussion already and for a while they didn't do it, but then it just started happening again.  It's one of those things where I feel like it could either be some sort of subtle power-play or it could be just plain forgetfulness.  It doesn't harm me or the kids, but it makes me feel bad too.  IDK, I probably just will leave it be.

I dunno, the reaching out and grasping without permission or invitation is pretty big BS. You're being very respectful them, and they're not reciprocating in the least.

[seamas]

(click to show/hide)

Every office luncheon I attend begins with a prayer.  We have a pot luck type thing every month and a couple of big dinners a year.

You know, it's fascinating hearing these things......this must be an American thing, eh?

Because I have literally never witnessed any work meeting, any group event (whether work-related or not) that began with any type of prayer.  NEVER.  In my entire life.

It's not exclusively American; remember this?  http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/story/2011/02/17/saguenay-raises-money.html

Oh of course religious nuttiness isn't exclusive to the United States......

but how many of you Americans can say that you've never EVER witnessed a group (professional/work-related or otherwise) lead an activity with a prayer?

I've never seen it.


That type of thing is probably extremely regional in the States.

You would rarely, if ever encounter it in the metropolitan Northeast of the USA.

There is just way too much religious diversity for that type of thing to go over well.

[Eternally Learning]

I dunno, the reaching out and grasping without permission or invitation is pretty big BS. You're being very respectful them, and they're not reciprocating in the least.

I guess I really can't disagree; this just boils down to a "pick your battles wisely" kind of thing and I just don't know if it's worth it to pick on here.  On the other-hand, my parents tend to be pretty passive so I don't think this would turn into a feud, just some hurt feelings on their parts.

[Vincegamer]

I've never seen it.


That type of thing is probably extremely regional in the States.

You would rarely, if ever encounter it in the metropolitan Northeast of the USA.

There is just way too much religious diversity for that type of thing to go over well.

How far north do you have to be to be metropolitan Northeast? I've never lived in NYC, but I have lived in mostly rural upstate and seen it there and I certainly see it here in the communities just outside the DC beltway. 

[Vincegamer]

update*

I finally sent the letter. It was slightly amended because I postponed until the next monthly meeting and while it was introduced as a moment of quiet reflection, the speaker who then got up started with "dear God" and ended with "amen". 
So I sent the letter saying how I'd felt uncomfortable and pressured. He sent back a reasoned response, saying that he had re-introduced the old opening prayer at the suggestion of others, suggested it was possible to accept it as being tolerant of those who want it, then said as this is his last month in office he'll hand my letter to the next president.

Very professional and reasonable response.

[Desert Fox]

Seems a good place to post this instead of a new thread. . .

While I think he might have been wrong in that he did not have to threaten legal action because the mayor seemed sympathetic, perfectly in his stance. I am surprised how many atheists condemn him however.

Christian prayer sparks complaint
 
Citizen felt excluded by blessing
 
By Betty Ann Adam, The StarPhoenix

A Christian prayer by a city councillor at a City of Saskatoon volunteer appreciation dinner discriminated against non-Christians, says a volunteer who intends to complain to the Saskatchewan Human Rights Commission.

Ashu Solo, a member of the city's cultural diversity and race relations committee, was among the guests at the dinner Wednesday, where Coun. Randy Donauer said a blessing over the food in which he mentioned Jesus and ended with "amen."

"It made me feel like a second-class citizen. It makes you feel excluded," said Solo, who is an atheist.

"It's ironic that I've now become a victim of religious bigotry and discrimination at this banquet that was supposed to be an appreciation banquet for the service of volunteers like me."

The inclusion of a Christian prayer at a municipal government event violates the separation of religion and government, Solo wrote in a lengthy email to Mayor Don Atchison, which he later distributed to the rest of council.

Solo also takes issue with a prayer that "clearly gives primacy to one religion over all other religions" at a municipal event paid for with Saskatoon taxpayer money.

"This is not a Christian country or a Christian city. It is a secular multicultural country and secular multicultural city with people from numerous religions as well as spiritual people, agnostics and atheists," Solo said.

Municipal officials should not use their offices to "perform religious bigotry, as this is," or "to impose their own religious beliefs on others," Solo said.

Atchison said he was caught off-guard by the complaint because many of the events he attends include a prayer before meals.

"I've never given it any thought at all," he said.

Atchison said he is sorry to hear Solo felt excluded.

He suggested in the future, the dinner could feature prayers from different religions on a rotating basis. There could even be a dinner with no prayer at all for atheists, he said.

Solo said the rotation idea will not work because there are thousands of religions.

He wants an apology from the mayor and a promise there won't be any more prayers at City of Saskatoon events. He said if he does not receive those by next Friday, he will proceed with a human rights complaint naming the City of Saskatoon, Atchison and Donauer.

"That will give us a few days to think about it and see what we need to do here," Atchison said. "I certainly couldn't give that (assurance and apology) to anyone right now."

Donauer, who is a parttime administrator at Saskatoon Christian Centre, an evangelical church, said he doesn't see anything wrong with praying to Jesus at such an event.

"If I go to function, whether it's a different religious organization or community organization, if they have a spiritual service, opening the function or something like that, I've never been offended by that, I don't have a problem with that. People are entitled to do what they want to do."

Asked if a City of Saskatoon event is different from a religious community event, Donauer responded, "I think he's got a different view on it than I do. I'm for freedom and tolerance.

"Separation of church and state is not a legislated thing. The charter of rights opens with the line under "the supremacy of God," so in the first line of the charter of rights of the Constitution it acknowledges that there is a God. So how prayer can violate that is beyond me," he said.

badam@thestarphoenix.com
© Copyright (c) The StarPhoenix

Read more: http://www.thestarphoenix.com/life/Christian+prayer+sparks+complaint/6496119/story.html#ixzz1syIfunJG

[seamas]

I've never seen it.


That type of thing is probably extremely regional in the States.

You would rarely, if ever encounter it in the metropolitan Northeast of the USA.

There is just way too much religious diversity for that type of thing to go over well.

How far north do you have to be to be metropolitan Northeast? I've never lived in NYC, but I have lived in mostly rural upstate and seen it there and I certainly see it here in the communities just outside the DC beltway.

I would say "metropolitan north east" would (in my intent) to be a 30-mile circle around NYC, and then smaller circles around most of the larger cities on the I-95 from New England on down to close to DC (I know things get a bit less secular once you get closer to the DC suburbs).

In NYS I have lived in Suffolk County, Queens County, a couple places in Ulster County, a couple places in Westchester County.
Worked in all sorts of places in the tristate (Northern New Jersey, south west Connecticut)
I have also lived in southern central New Hampshire.

I have never seen this type of public prayer in any work-related situation ever.

[Vincegamer]

Atchison said he was caught off-guard by the complaint because many of the events he attends include a prayer before meals.

"I've never given it any thought at all," he said.

This is why I think a letter of complaint is the way to go. I don't think a law suit or in Canada a report to the HR commission is the way to go.
The councilman is a bit of an ass but the mayor seems reasonable. I think people don't actually enjoy making others uncomfortable (mostly) so letting him know that he is could often be enough to change the behavior.

Mine was a bit of a different situation of course because it was not a government-sponsored event and it was in the USA.

[Vincegamer]

About to go to this month's luncheon. I will see if anything has changed. I will also sit in the back so I don't feel so awkward if the mood to sit overtakes me.