Author Topic: "Slaves Obey Your Masters" billboard torn down  (Read 7738 times)

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Offline Shibboleth

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Re: "Slaves Obey Your Masters" billboard torn down
« Reply #270 on: Mar 23, 2012, 10:09:36 AM »
Is there archaeological evidence of a few hundred thousand people wandering the desert for forty years?

I highly doubt it was a few hundred thousand even if those were the claims. I mean look at the numbers used in the OT for everything.
common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.

Offline Shibboleth

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Re: "Slaves Obey Your Masters" billboard torn down
« Reply #271 on: Mar 23, 2012, 10:12:20 AM »
I just Googled Memphis and at its peak the population was around 30K.
common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.

Online seaotter

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Re: "Slaves Obey Your Masters" billboard torn down
« Reply #272 on: Mar 23, 2012, 10:15:18 AM »
Then I don't get why that doesn't mean there is no evidence of the exodus. Influence from edygt is obvious like the whole man god born of a virgin that dies and is resurrected.
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Online Johnny Slick

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Re: "Slaves Obey Your Masters" billboard torn down
« Reply #273 on: Mar 23, 2012, 10:15:49 AM »
Is there archaeological evidence of a few hundred thousand people wandering the desert for forty years?
Professor Bob Breyer has a hypothesis that it may have occurred but the numbers are off by orders of magnitude. The Biblical account is vaguely allusory towards something that could possibly have happened in the Nile delta (and way away from the pharoah but clearly it is at best an exaggeration). There is zero evidence coming from Egypt that this happened but to be fair they were notoriously unreliable about recording their losses.
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Offline IrishJazz

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Re: "Slaves Obey Your Masters" billboard torn down
« Reply #274 on: Mar 23, 2012, 10:24:49 AM »
(or pointing out that the archaeological evidence for Exodus is non-existent.)

What kind of archaeological evidence are they expecting to find of the Exodus? There is no doubt in my mind that early Hebrews were heavily influenced by Egypt. The Arc of the Covenant was an Egyptian design. The fear of saying God's true name is an Egyptian concept.

By the archaeological evidence for Exodus, I mean things like evidence for large scale enslavement of Israelites by Egyptians, anything that could be confused with the social dislocations of the plagues, or the arrival of a conquering people from Canaan- the contemporaneous sacking of cities like Jericho.  The mass migration of 600,000 people may have reasonably been expected to leave some sort of trace.

That a small group could have left Egypt may well be behind the story.  There is even a hint that the Semitic people who left may have been the Hyksos.  JWJH was the god of the Cannites, on the path between Egypt and Israel.

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I am always amazed when I talk to someone from England about the American Revolution. It isn't that the American Revolution was a non-issue to those in England but it certainly isn't viewed as the same Earth shattering event that American's envision.

It was a big deal to them at the time, but not without controversy.  As a rule, people don't celebrate their losses as part of their national heritage.  It's good we won the Battle of New Orleans in the War of 1812, even if the war was already over.  The Canadians like to talk about how they kicked our ass when we invaded them in that war. Most Americans don't even know about that part of the fighting . 


Seaotter.... I hope you are not citing the discredited Horus myth without tongue in Cheek. 
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Offline Shibboleth

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Re: "Slaves Obey Your Masters" billboard torn down
« Reply #275 on: Mar 23, 2012, 10:29:04 AM »
Then I don't get why that doesn't mean there is no evidence of the exodus. Influence from edygt is obvious like the whole man god born of a virgin that dies and is resurrected.

I didn't claim that there was archaeological evidence for the Exodus.
common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.

Online seaotter

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Re: "Slaves Obey Your Masters" billboard torn down
« Reply #276 on: Mar 23, 2012, 10:32:52 AM »
No just that all the stuff in the bible isn't new. Bits and pieces were benig shared in all these cultures.
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Offline IrishJazz

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Re: "Slaves Obey Your Masters" billboard torn down
« Reply #277 on: Mar 23, 2012, 11:51:08 AM »
No just that all the stuff in the bible isn't new. Bits and pieces were benig shared in all these cultures.

Some of it actually is novel.  There are other heroes fathered by the gods, but Jesus is the first one identified with the laboring classes.  Rather than a life of adventure and miracles, his story is confined to 2-3 years, starting after the arrest of a better-known (at the time) religious leader.

But the Horus stuff... the usual Egyptian model for Jesus... is just made up.  There are very few similarities.
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Offline jmars

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Re: "Slaves Obey Your Masters" billboard torn down
« Reply #278 on: Mar 23, 2012, 12:28:12 PM »
I think the problem with this billboard is that it comes across as having a motive other than what has been typical of the AA in most cases. In most cases the billboards are meant to grab the attention of non-believers who might be "in the closet". David Silverman uses this analogy all the time. Atheists are afraid to "come out" to their family and friends because of the backlash often received by such a declaration. I was listening to a news segment on NPR about the Reason Rally this morning.

http://www.npr.org/2012/03/23/149021993/woodstock-for-atheists-a-moment-for-nonbelievers

The AA is meant to support atheists living in America and to promote healthy and tolerant interactions among believers and non-believers. We are tired of being seen as lesser Americans or human beings because of our lack of belief in God. The problem is, that when you make a statement of non-belief, and back it up with reasons why, people treat this as an attack on their OWN beliefs. This is why we have so many believers with persecution complexes. There is no evidence that they are really being persecuted or treated unfairly by our government based on their beliefs, yet they perceive that it is when it tells them they cannot make laws to force their beliefs on others.

If atheists want "God forbid" SCIENCE taught in Science class, we are mean, intolerant atheists. If we don't want our government to put a cross up or the Ten Commandments up in front of a government building, implying that our government favors the Christian religion and it's morals over those that we voted on and agreed on in a secular society, then we are then we are just doing it to make a nuissance. How many times do we hear people complain that we're "taking God out of our schools" etc, as if that is something bad? And because we don't stand by and allow people to bully us, smear our names, marginalize us, and tell us we have to let our children be taught theology in science class, that makes us the bad ones.

As it said in the article, there is an atheist movement arising. Atheists don't like living as marginalized members of society because they can't believe in un-supported claims. In every movement, you have very outspoken, crass leaders, and pacifist, diplomatic leaders, and supporters who identify with one kind or the other. They are all needed in every movement for it to be successful. If the blacks didn't have a Martin Luther King, Jr. to juxtapose Malcom X, the movement might not have been supported by white people as much. If there wasn't a Malcom X, there might not have been the raw, passionate anger component that actually forces progress to be made. Its about balance.

Atheists are tired of being pushed around by the majority and this billboard, to me, shows them pushing back. You want to declare this "The Year of the Bible", well we'll show you that there are actually people living in America who don't hold the Bible in esteem, and here is just one example of why. So I don't see it as an affront to Christians personally, just a rejection of a declaration made that marginalizes good Amercians who don't believe in the Bible. I feel that it is aimed at the people who decided this and is saying in a sarcastic way, "Hey! You can't do that! SOME of us are aware of the not-so-nice parts of the Bible!"

And I still agree that the image didn't help. However, I doubt that if it were words alone, there would be any less of a backlash. Like I said, anything an atheists says about Christians beliefs or their Bible (even if it's only expressing an opinion publically) is considered "offensive" or a direct attack. How many "Jesus is the reason for the season" billboards do I see every winter? Do atheists demand these billboards get torn down? Yet the AA puts up a billboard that says "You know its a myth, this season, celebrate REASON!" and O'Reilly barades David Silverman and with ad-hom attacks on national television over it. (However I'm sure David loved the publicity) However, this billboard is directed to other atheists, not Christians. The confusion might occur because of the play on the Christian version that is probably directed to Christians AND non-christians as a conversion tactic. Christians project their goals onto atheists. It is the Christians who have to convert everyone. Atheists, and the AA, have said over and over, that we don't wish to CONVERT anyone, we just want to be understood and tolerated. So when we argue with Christians we want them to admit they have no evidence, admit that their religion is based on pure faith, and try to convince them that they can't force FAITH on people who value empirical truth. We are basically asking to live and let live and to make religion ride in the backseat of politics. I don't want to speak for everyone, but in my experience, this is true. The outspoken atheists just want the many atheists we know are out there to stand up with us and show people of faith that we aren't what bad things they've been told we are. We're their brothers and sisters, friends and relatives - people they love and trust.

David Silverman explaining the Reason Rally purpose:

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But the main point of the rally, Silverman says, is not to tweak the faithful. It's to encourage closeted atheists to take heart.
« Last Edit: Mar 23, 2012, 12:39:13 PM by jmars »

Offline NekoNinja

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Re: "Slaves Obey Your Masters" billboard torn down
« Reply #279 on: Mar 23, 2012, 12:29:35 PM »
No just that all the stuff in the bible isn't new. Bits and pieces were benig shared in all these cultures.

Some of it actually is novel.  There are other heroes fathered by the gods, but Jesus is the first one identified with the laboring classes.  Rather than a life of adventure and miracles, his story is confined to 2-3 years, starting after the arrest of a better-known (at the time) religious leader.

But the Horus stuff... the usual Egyptian model for Jesus... is just made up.  There are very few similarities.

I was wondering if you knew somewhere where I can read more on this type of thing (not the Horus nonsense.) I'd be interested in learning more about the culture and such of the time period, along with the religions and cults of the period and area. Do you have any good resources on this?

Offline jmars

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Re: "Slaves Obey Your Masters" billboard torn down
« Reply #280 on: Mar 23, 2012, 12:30:05 PM »
No just that all the stuff in the bible isn't new. Bits and pieces were benig shared in all these cultures.

Some of it actually is novel.  There are other heroes fathered by the gods, but Jesus is the first one identified with the laboring classes.  Rather than a life of adventure and miracles, his story is confined to 2-3 years, starting after the arrest of a better-known (at the time) religious leader.

But the Horus stuff... the usual Egyptian model for Jesus... is just made up.  There are very few similarities.

I think he was thinking of Mithra maybe? Persian Sun God.

Offline Lukas

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Re: "Slaves Obey Your Masters" billboard torn down
« Reply #281 on: Mar 23, 2012, 12:35:29 PM »
Maybe I live in the wrong part of the country, or I am surrounded by too many smart people, but I never really felt discriminated against because of my atheism/agnosticism. While the movement for teaching creationism in school and putting up 10 Commandments everywhere is certainly vocal, they are a minority, and not very successful at pushing their radical agenda into the mainstream. Most people in the US might be member of some kind of Church, but for most of them religion does not play a dominant role in their lives. Sometimes all this whining about atheists being an oppressed minority reminds me of Fox News whining about their imagined "War on Christmas".

Offline jmars

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Re: "Slaves Obey Your Masters" billboard torn down
« Reply #282 on: Mar 23, 2012, 01:00:25 PM »
Maybe I live in the wrong part of the country, or I am surrounded by too many smart people, but I never really felt discriminated against because of my atheism/agnosticism. While the movement for teaching creationism in school and putting up 10 Commandments everywhere is certainly vocal, they are a minority, and not very successful at pushing their radical agenda into the mainstream. Most people in the US might be member of some kind of Church, but for most of them religion does not play a dominant role in their lives. Sometimes all this whining about atheists being an oppressed minority reminds me of Fox News whining about their imagined "War on Christmas".

Well I disagree about religion not playing a domninant role for "most" Americans. I grew up a Christians and in the world which I lived, everything was filtered through religion. I couldn't make a decision without praying about it. People chose partners to marry based on a "feeling" they had when praying about it (you can guess how that worked out). People vote based on what their pastor tells them. I grew up in SoCal, not the appalachain trail, btw.

I never said we were an oppressed minority, but that we were a marginalized group in Amercian society. I'm not claiming persecution or oppression, but there in an obvious problem with social civility between atheists and Christians. This year another teacher at my school who was once nice and chatted with me periodically while making copies invited me to a bible study she runs after school. I respectfuly declined saying I am an atheist.  Ever since that day she completely ignores me and doesn't even say hi to me anymore when we stand feet away from each other, it makes me feel like shit. All I want is for acceptence and understanding and for people to not treat my like im contagious. Luckily for us the country IS secular and we tend to win court cases regarding religion in government, that that isn't the only problem. It isn't about whining all the time, its about not letting the sand seap through the cracks until it runs out. The only reason we continue to have a secular society is because we can't let little things like erecting religions symbols continue until they are everywhere and those symbols begin to symbolize that this is a CHRISTIAN nation. It only serves to reinforce that opinion when we allow these things to occur.

Offline Lukas

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Re: "Slaves Obey Your Masters" billboard torn down
« Reply #283 on: Mar 23, 2012, 01:14:32 PM »
jmars, I guess I disagree with your portrayal of the direction this country is going. At least the long-term trend seems to be towards a more secular society, so we should all be generally optimistic. I am sorry to hear about your experiences, but I still think that for most (meaning more than 50% of) Americans religion does not play a dominant role in their lives. While I am not an expert in this field (sociology of religion?), there are various numbers backing this up, e.g., from http://www.religion-online.org/showarticle.asp?title=237
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Church attendance in the U.S. is, apparently, stable and strong. Year after year 40 percent of Americans tell pollsters that they attended church or synagogue in the last seven days. From this evidence, American religion seems quite hardy, especially compared to the statistics from European nations. If the poll data can be believed, three decades of otherwise corrosive social and cultural change has left American church attendance virtually untouched.

[...]

Several years ago we teamed up with sociologist Mark Chaves to test the 40 percent figure for church attendance. Our initial study, based on attendance counts in Protestant churches in one Ohio county and Catholic churches in 18 dioceses, indicated a much lower rate of religious participation than the polls report. Instead of 40 percent of Protestants attending church, we found 20 percent. Instead of 50 percent of Catholics attending church, we found 28 percent. In other words, actual church attendance was about half the rate indicated by national public opinion polls.

Now there are obviously other figures than weekly church attendance to measure religiosity, but do you have any numbers backing up your disagreeing with my statement?

Offline jmars

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Re: "Slaves Obey Your Masters" billboard torn down
« Reply #284 on: Mar 23, 2012, 01:53:17 PM »
Well I took your "most" to mean "in general, save for some extremists", but I would agree that church attendence won't tell you how often someone thinks about religion daily and how that affects their decisions. So my evidence is anecdotal, I admit. My main objection was to the comment about atheists acting like an oppressed minority. Have you thought that maybe the reason our society IS continuing to be secular, is partially because of the outspoken secularists supported by our iron-clad constitution who don't allow the religious minority (if thats what you want to call it) to get away with attemping to theocratize the country? That, and increased education to rural areas. But, ultimately it doesn't matter whether "most" christians aren't overtly religious in every day life as long as there are a few outspoken, dance on the constitution, ones who are and who are in a position of power over the rest of us. These people will completely disregard the Establishment Clause and try to get aways with bringing religion into public curriculum for as long as they can get away with it. If we let them, then the atheist or non-Christian students who attend these school are marginalized. It isn't an imagined persecution complex in my opinion. It is blatant disregard for the secular nature of our country, and absolute lies and history revision in some cases in order to promote an agenda.

*Edited for clarity
« Last Edit: Mar 23, 2012, 02:10:36 PM by jmars »

 

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