Author Topic: Episode #348  (Read 2386 times)

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Offline Steven Novella

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Episode #348
« on: Mar 17, 2012, 11:51:07 AM »
Guest Rogue: Richard Saunders
This Day in Skepticism: Vanguard I
News Items: Oldest Skeleton, Red Deer Cave People, Neutrino Communication, Defending Science in Australia, Failure to Replicate Bem's Psi Research
Who's That Noisy
Your Questions and E-mails: Catching up on Vaccines
Science or Fiction    This week's topic is:
Representativeness Heuristic
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Steven Novella
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Offline seaotter

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Re: Episode #348
« Reply #1 on: Mar 17, 2012, 12:31:30 PM »
Thanks for the podcast!
"There is no use trying," said Alice; "one can't believe impossible things." Lewis Carroll

Offline Trinoc

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Re: Episode #348
« Reply #2 on: Mar 17, 2012, 12:41:07 PM »
Thanks folks!

WTN is at 50:27. The voice is familiar .. Jacob Bronowski? Heinz Wolff? An early plug for nuclear power?

I'm sure the people of Lincolnshire (pronounced "Lincoln-sher"*) would be delighted to know their county is now a country!

How did so many people get last week's WTN? Well, if you know the name of the tune and type "Lincolnshire Poacher" into Wikipedia you quickly end up here and here.

Edit: [* .. or possibly "Lincoln-sheer" in the song, to rhyme with "year".]
« Last Edit: Mar 17, 2012, 12:59:59 PM by Trinoc »
Do people who say "First World Problems" really think the only concern of people in developing countries is where the next bowl of rice is coming from?

Online klintistvud

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Re: Episode #348
« Reply #3 on: Mar 17, 2012, 01:20:40 PM »
WTN: Martin Fleischmann (talking about cold fusion)

Offline TheLostVertex

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Re: Episode #348
« Reply #4 on: Mar 17, 2012, 01:32:13 PM »
And also for science or fiction, cashews arent nuts either. They are the seed of an accessory fruit. So even if you didnt want to do the "peanuts arent nuts" thing, you sort of did anyways as well  ;)

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Offline hesterk

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Nuts
« Reply #5 on: Mar 17, 2012, 02:20:19 PM »
The nut thing is damn weird. I think of 'culinary nuts,' 'culinary seeds' and legumes and ignore the botanical categories. Except when I want to be a smug pedant and score a point. If anyone else enjoys being a pedant, the wikipedia page is good.

I'm allergic to walnuts and pecans (neither being proper nuts - seeds) and mildly sensitive to hazelnuts (actual nuts) and raw cashews. The latter two give me the same tingly mouthfeel that first alerts me to the presence of walnuts. I am absolutely crazy about nuts and seeds - my main source of protein - and wonder if this is in any way related to my allergy.

Small pieces of walnuts and pecans are identifiable by their color and veining but really small pieces look like any old nut. I hate it when chocolate cake has unidentifiable nut crumbs!

Offline TheLostVertex

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Re: Nuts
« Reply #6 on: Mar 17, 2012, 03:06:29 PM »
...I hate it when chocolate cake has unidentifiable nut crumbs!

You and me both. When ever I bake with nuts and other common allergens I make sure to explicitly tell people I am giving it to whats in it. Unless I dont like them  >:D

Offline willradik

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Re: Episode #348
« Reply #7 on: Mar 17, 2012, 04:31:46 PM »
Good show. I always love hearing about thrusts against "CAM". Hey. How about we call non-science-based medicine MUM or Made Up Medicine. Or how about Spontaneously Conceived Unmedicine? (SCUM)

Offline eddwilson

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Re: Episode #348
« Reply #8 on: Mar 17, 2012, 05:36:42 PM »
BBC Radio 4 has a programme called Material World - basically science news.  It recently featured a discussion with David King (previously Chief Scientific Advisor to the UK government) in which he was pretty scathing about homeopathy.  Some listeners emailed to complain, and one used an argument I found interesting.  He said that promotion of homeopathy is not science-based but it is evidence-based, by which I assume he meant... no, I won't put words into his mouth.  This distinction I hadn't heard before.  It sounds like sophistry.  Could it have any merit at all?

Offline Old Hoplite

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Re: Episode #348
« Reply #9 on: Mar 17, 2012, 06:37:43 PM »
How about a legal market for organs?
Regulated, so the doner doesn't get screwed and with proper medical care at each step.
That sounds better than 'organ-legging' as it is now.
Beer is proof God loves us. Ben Franklin

Offline JuniorSpaceman

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Re: Episode #348
« Reply #10 on: Mar 17, 2012, 09:08:54 PM »
BBC Radio 4 has a programme called Material World - basically science news.  It recently featured a discussion with David King (previously Chief Scientific Advisor to the UK government) in which he was pretty scathing about homeopathy.  Some listeners emailed to complain, and one used an argument I found interesting.  He said that promotion of homeopathy is not science-based but it is evidence-based, by which I assume he meant... no, I won't put words into his mouth.  This distinction I hadn't heard before.  It sounds like sophistry.  Could it have any merit at all?

I'm sure that Steve will jump in here, as it's one of his pet topics, but the difference between SBM end EBM is that SBM takes into account what we might call reality, whereas EBM looks at studies, without any cause to look at the world as we know it. So Homeopathy can pull up studies which show that it's marginally better than doing nothing, but you would have to throw out, or throw into doubt, large chunks of what we have learned over the past couple of centuries in the fields of physics, chemistry, biology, medicine and so on. The real fact is that homeopathy is not even any good in an 'evidence based medicine' frame - the few studies that support it are, to put it nicely, sub-par. Remember, there are studies that 'suggest' virtually any possible hypothesis - this is what fills second rate newspapers the world over ("Study suggests that preferring Simpsons over Futurama makes you a better lover!").

Offline clavicorn

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Re: Episode #348
« Reply #11 on: Mar 18, 2012, 02:15:28 AM »
Something awry with http://www.theskepticsguide.org/ at the moment.

Offline willradik

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Re: Episode #348
« Reply #12 on: Mar 18, 2012, 02:27:37 AM »
BBC Radio 4 has a programme called Material World - basically science news.  It recently featured a discussion with David King (previously Chief Scientific Advisor to the UK government) in which he was pretty scathing about homeopathy.  Some listeners emailed to complain, and one used an argument I found interesting.  He said that promotion of homeopathy is not science-based but it is evidence-based, by which I assume he meant... no, I won't put words into his mouth.  This distinction I hadn't heard before.  It sounds like sophistry.  Could it have any merit at all?


There appears to be a pretty extensive discussion of this distinction (EBM vs SBM) on the Science-Based Medicine Blog: http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/evidence-based-medicine-human-studies-ethics-and-the-gonzalez-regimen-a-disappointing-editorial-in-the-journal-of-clinical-oncology-part-1/

Offline wallet55

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Science or fiction
« Reply #13 on: Mar 18, 2012, 07:53:21 AM »
If that run had of continued much longer, I was gong to start suspecting it was rigged, thanks for being real, or at least seeming real.
Humankind cannot stand very much reality.   T. S. Eliot

Offline Trinoc

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Re: Episode #348
« Reply #14 on: Mar 18, 2012, 08:19:15 AM »
BBC Radio 4 has a programme called Material World - basically science news.  It recently featured a discussion with David King (previously Chief Scientific Advisor to the UK government) in which he was pretty scathing about homeopathy.  Some listeners emailed to complain, and one used an argument I found interesting.  He said that promotion of homeopathy is not science-based but it is evidence-based, by which I assume he meant... no, I won't put words into his mouth.  This distinction I hadn't heard before.  It sounds like sophistry.  Could it have any merit at all?

I'm sure that Steve will jump in here, as it's one of his pet topics, but the difference between SBM end EBM is that SBM takes into account what we might call reality, whereas EBM looks at studies, without any cause to look at the world as we know it. So Homeopathy can pull up studies which show that it's marginally better than doing nothing, but you would have to throw out, or throw into doubt, large chunks of what we have learned over the past couple of centuries in the fields of physics, chemistry, biology, medicine and so on. The real fact is that homeopathy is not even any good in an 'evidence based medicine' frame - the few studies that support it are, to put it nicely, sub-par. Remember, there are studies that 'suggest' virtually any possible hypothesis - this is what fills second rate newspapers the world over ("Study suggests that preferring Simpsons over Futurama makes you a better lover!").

Perhaps we should extend the concepts beyond medicine to, say, Evidence-Based Knowledge (EBK) and Science-Based Knowledge (SBK). The practice of EBK without SBK is just the collection of data and the search for correlations. It is like the first stage of epidemiology: observing (for example) that the people who use a particular water pump are far more likely to get cholera than those who use another one, or that the people who work in the brewery and drink the free beer get it almost not at all. The SBK stage was to postulate a mechanism: infected sewage leaking into the water to the pump, or boiling of water in brewing sterilising the water .. and then testing it. Without that stage, all you have is correlation, which as we know may or may not be associated with causation.

Two prime, non-medical, examples of EBK to the exclusion of SBK are Rupert Sheldrake, who needs no introduction, and Piers Corbyn, weather eccentric, amateur climate change denier (in the sense that I think he really believes it and, as far as I know, receives no sponsorship from the usual climate denial industries or foundations), and believer that all climate and weather is caused almost exclusively by solar and lunar influences. He even claimed (based solely on alleged correlation) that the magnetic field cycle of the sun was (partly?) responsible for earthquakes and volcanic eruptions.

I've seen both of these speak on their chosen subjects. In the case of Sheldrake, twice six years apart, where the most notable thing was that the evidence he presented in 2011 was indistinguishable from that he presented in 2005, suggesting he had done nothing new in the intervening years and was content to plug books and talks on the same old stuff instead. In his latest book he seems content just to bash the scientific establishment without presenting anything much new of his own.

When either of these were asked to propose a mechanism, they said they had none, and more or less implied they didn't much care what the mechanism was. There would be occasional waffle about quantum entanglement or other forms of unseen connectedness of all things (reminiscent of Dirk Gently), but nothing on which you could base a testable hypothesis. For the most part they simply said that there must be something going on because they could see all these correlations in the data, but it didn't really matter much how it worked. If only the blind, dogmatic scientists who rejected their work would accept their findings then presumably the whole wonderful edifice would be revealed.

To misquote Rutherford, what these people do is not science but stamp collecting: a blind accumulation of data, carefully collated into groups which appear to correlate with each other (whether by chance or otherwise), with neither the ability nor the desire to try to explain why the data should be the way it is. It is tempting to think that they are afraid that if they analysed their data from this perspective then their cherished correlations would vanish in a puff of statistical noise.
Do people who say "First World Problems" really think the only concern of people in developing countries is where the next bowl of rice is coming from?

 

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