Topic: "Calling out racism on Richard Dawkins' website."

[EhJayArr]

From Rebecca Watson's facebook status just a moment ago.

...I'm sorry, but that seems like bullshit. It's one guy complaining about some forum posts, and drawing some dubious offense at a few specific passages in The Ancestor's Tale that seem (to me) to be furthering the idea of racial equality:

Professor Dawkins shares many of these retrograde views. Quite apart from the whole “Dear Muslima” crap, in The Ancestor’s Tale he expressed astonishment that we call people “black” even though they might have quite light complexions. Apparently no one bothered to explain to him that black, like African American, is a community, a culture, an identity, not a simple description of skin colour.

It seems to me that Dawkins' point is that "black" is a useless label, since it neither describes one's pigmentation nor ancestry specifically or accurately, and it would be progress toward racial equality if we could stop thinking of people in terms of black and white. You might disagree, but you could hardly call that sentiment racist.

That entire blog post is a person's one-sided rant at some vague forum members, and somehow this gets posted by Rebecca as "calling out racism on Dawkins' website." What a crock. Very disappointed in Rebecca.

[Avarice]

Here we go again...

[Citizen Skeptic]

Hispanic is a pretty useless label too since about the only thing it means is that either your ancestors spoke spanish or had to learn it. IMO, black is in the same category. If I were describing a stranger, I would say white, black, olive, redhead, tall, short, fat, skinny, etc. That's the phenotype. You can't say with any certainty that a black man is african-american. He may be cuban, or jamaican, or australian.

[DeepGlue]

It seems to me that Dawkins' point is that "black" is a useless label, since it neither describes one's pigmentation nor ancestry specifically or accurately, and it would be progress toward racial equality if we could stop thinking of people in terms of black and white. You might disagree, but you could hardly call that sentiment racist.

Can anyone quote those passages from The Ancestor's Tale? The context and wording are probably pretty important. The term "race" is certainly useless from a biological perspective. But from a social perspective it can be a useful way to group people. I say can be because it certainly comes with pitfalls...

[andrewclunn]

Does she have any credibility left?

[EhJayArr]

It seems to me that Dawkins' point is that "black" is a useless label, since it neither describes one's pigmentation nor ancestry specifically or accurately, and it would be progress toward racial equality if we could stop thinking of people in terms of black and white. You might disagree, but you could hardly call that sentiment racist.

Can anyone quote those passages from The Ancestor's Tale? The context and wording are probably pretty important. The term "race" is certainly useless from a biological perspective. But from a social perspective it can be a useful way to group people. I say can be because it certainly comes with pitfalls...

The complete lack of quotes is why I think the blog post is such BS, and why I'm disappointed in Rebecca for "calling out the racism on Dawkins' site" without any genuine reason to do so.

How many of her facebook followers are going to not even click the link, but now think that Dawkins is racist, or condones racism? It's wildly irresponsible for somebody with the fan base that she has.

[Caffiene]

You can't say with any certainty that a black man is african-american. He may be cuban, or jamaican, or australian.

+1

To wit:

Apparently no one bothered to explain to him that black, like African American, is a community, a culture, an identity, not a simple description of skin colour.

This quote, especially in the context of comments about how complex our use of the term "black" is, seems to me to be quite frankly racist in its own right. Really, "black" is a community, a culture, an indentity?

All these pacific islanders must have exactly the same culture as african americans - after all, theyre black. All these africans must have exactly the same culture as cubans - after all, theyre black. [/sarcasm]

At the very least it seems to be offensively US-centric (or australian centric, judging by one of the quoted conversations?), where they have failed to even realise that there are black people who might not be african american. At the very least it shouldnt be that hard to remember that there are africans as well as african americans, and to realise that african american culture is not interchangable with african culture.

“Where are you from?”
“Australia.”
“No, where are you really from?”

“Wow, your English is so good! You’re always so quiet, I just assumed… ”
(Apparently only foreign people are quiet and keep to themselves?)

I have a relevant anecdote: My cousin, who is a tall, confident, fast-talking, white, Australian male, has been to the US a few times... iirc this particular time he went as part of a basketball exhibition tour. He reported a very similar exchange.
"Where are you from?" "Australia" "Oh, wow, your english is really good!"

Having dark skin and being quite may have had something to do with the reactions this writer got, but these things also happen to people who are neither dark skinned nor quiet.

[David E.]

Can we just ignore this.  We don't need another 200 page thread about Rebecca.

[Caffiene]

Can we just ignore this.  We don't need another 200 page thread about Rebecca.

The stupid thing is as far as I can tell the whole thing is just a letter someone sent her. The post is just an "Ill just leave this here" with no substance, commentary, or even opinion.

[EhJayArr]

Can we just ignore this.  We don't need another 200 page thread about Rebecca.

You can ignore it, sure. 

I think it's bullshit that Rebecca (considering how many followers she has), titled the post "calling out racism on Richard Dawkins' website" without the link containing any evidence for the claim.

Can you imagine somebody that you respect "calling out racism on the Skeptic's Guide website," but only linking to a whiny blog post that makes vague references to some unknown forum posts?

[andrewclunn]

Feminism, it's like... a religion or something 

[Demosthenes]

Labelling people “black” is both irrelevant from a biological and cultural perspective.
The second people stop associating skin colour with anything other than melanin content, the better off the world will be.

[341gerbig]

The post took Richards quotes out of context, and were misunderstood and made to be racist, that much is certain.

But Rebecca should know better than to use inflammatory titles to posts, she has herself complained about other people using inflammatory article/post titles on the podcast.

She seems to have a flair for making issues inflammatory.

[Johnny Slick]

We don't generally refer to Pacific Islanders as black. That seems to be a British thing, not a US thing. We do call African nationals and Australian aborigines black, which is weird in a sense but meh, it is what it is. As for Cubans, black Cubans are also called and considered black and ought to be because they share much of the same culture and history as African-Americans. White Cubans are certainly *not* thought of or referred to as black, however, and really never have been (for one example, although blacks were banned from baseball from the early 1880s until Jackie Robinson broke the color barrier in 1947, Dolf Luque, a white Cuban, won 200 games in the major leagues and nobody batted an eye aside from the occasional story about his "Cuban temper").

Not  to defend every little thing Rebecca says but that was by quite a large amount my least favorite chapter of the Ancestor's book. I didn't think it was racist so much as it was completely ignorant of how Americans perceive culture and race though. I thought it was generally... English in tone. The way they think that the British Museum is a good idea, Dawkins thought this chapter of Ancestor's was a good idea.

[Hanes]

It seems to me that Dawkins' point is that "black" is a useless label, since it neither describes one's pigmentation nor ancestry specifically or accurately, and it would be progress toward racial equality if we could stop thinking of people in terms of black and white. You might disagree, but you could hardly call that sentiment racist.

Can anyone quote those passages from The Ancestor's Tale? The context and wording are probably pretty important. The term "race" is certainly useless from a biological perspective. But from a social perspective it can be a useful way to group people. I say can be because it certainly comes with pitfalls...

Really it's hard to give context without the whole of the 13-page subchapter, but it is one of my favorites out of one of my favorite books, and is worth a read.
There's a pdf of the text, third link down in a google search of "the grasshopper's tale" link

I'm trying to quote just a few paragraphs for you and I'm failing.  There's tons of context provided by almost every other paragraph, and it should really be read in its entirety.

I urge you to take a few minutes and give it a read.  If you like the style, let me suggest the rest of the book, which is, imo, Dawkins' magnum opus.