Topic: "Calling out racism on Richard Dawkins' website."

[seaotter]

People are shit. If they have the power they will use it. Nobody can point fingers. Every group has been oppressed or oppressor somewhere in their past.

While I agree with 3 of those 4 sentences, #3 is incorrect for the exact reasons that 1, 2, and 4 are right. Because it is almost societal nature to keep other people down and create scapegoats, we should be vigilant in pointing this out wherever it occurs. Yes, absolutely the lesson that should be brought out of this is that no one is immune to this pattern of thinking. It's only by being aware of this that we can consciously work against it in the present and in the future.

Good point.

[Johnny Slick]

He also gave us the Holocaust.

[Citizen Skeptic]

He also gave us the Holocaust.

I covered that already - genocide. He killed a lot of non-jews also. Probably an atheist or two.

[Johnny Slick]

He also gave us the Holocaust.

I covered that already - genocide. He killed a lot of non-jews also. Probably an atheist or two.

You know who else thought they had the Holocaust covered? That's right, Hitler.

[Caffiene]

I covered that already - genocide. He killed a lot of non-jews also. Probably an atheist or two.

Keep in mind you said that words and opinions dont count, only actions...

Did Hitler physically kill a lot of non-jews and atheists himself? As in pulled the trigger? Did his actions kill the jews and create genocide, or was it his words and opinions that caused the genocide?

[GodSlayer]

I'd like someone to show me the rightful owners of the Rosetta Stone and similar artefacts. A place, a land, does not own property.

shhhhhh, don't let France hear you. they've got their eye on that statue of liberty you guys aren't using.

[GodSlayer]

I dislike hate speech but I dislike muzzled speech even more. I think it is OK to yell fire in a crowded theater. If any harm comes from it, you pay the consequences. If no harm comes from it, you probably should just be thrown out. Are we going to make it illegal for someone to call me hispanic? I hate it when people do that.

what does "harm comes from it" mean? (think of the heckler's veto; think of radical Muslim responses to newspaper comic strips. does the speaker get any blame for the violence that happened in response to their words in this scenario of 'paying for the consequences'?)

No harm comes from words (which also means thought), only actions.

so, what, if anything, should we think ill of (or have tried to kill) Hitler for?

Genocide?

Poland

he didn't do that, he just used his words to get others to do it.

[GodSlayer]

I covered that already - genocide. He killed a lot of non-jews also. Probably an atheist or two.

Keep in mind you said that words and opinions dont count, only actions...

Did Hitler physically kill a lot of non-jews and atheists himself? As in pulled the trigger? Did his actions kill the jews and create genocide, or was it his words and opinions that caused the genocide?

damnit, beat me to it. I need to get up earlier in the morning.

[Rabbit]

I dislike hate speech but I dislike muzzled speech even more. I think it is OK to yell fire in a crowded theater. If any harm comes from it, you pay the consequences. If no harm comes from it, you probably should just be thrown out. Are we going to make it illegal for someone to call me hispanic? I hate it when people do that.

what does "harm comes from it" mean? (think of the heckler's veto; think of radical Muslim responses to newspaper comic strips. does the speaker get any blame for the violence that happened in response to their words in this scenario of 'paying for the consequences'?)

No harm comes from words (which also means thought), only actions.

so, what, if anything, should we think ill of (or have tried to kill) Hitler for?

Genocide?

Poland

OK, but to be fair, he did give us the Beetle and Autobahns.

And the anti-tobacco movement.

First country to link lung cancer to smoking and ban it in public places.

[Citizen Skeptic]

I covered that already - genocide. He killed a lot of non-jews also. Probably an atheist or two.

Keep in mind you said that words and opinions dont count, only actions...

Did Hitler physically kill a lot of non-jews and atheists himself? As in pulled the trigger? Did his actions kill the jews and create genocide, or was it his words and opinions that caused the genocide?

The words weren't the problem. It's was the ordering of the genocide that was the crime. Of course he had use words to convey his message. I doubt if he used some mafia euphimism for kill all the jews and gypsies.

Don't tell me you buy the "the devil made me do it" defense?

[Johnny Slick]

Funny you should mention that, because the Nazis were all about what they considered to be plausible deniability after there was a *huge* flap among the German people over euthanasia of the handicapped in the late 30s. This was documented in Michael Shermer's excellent book on the subject Denying History. IIRC the exact term the higher-ups used was "ausrotten", which essentially means "exterminate" a la what you do to lice. In fact, Holocaust deniers like to pounce on the fact that there is no note that says "Hi I am Adolph Hitler and I want to kill 6 million Jews".

[GodSlayer]

the "the devil made me do it" defense

I don't know how that means something relevant in this context.

[Citizen Skeptic]

the "the devil made me do it" defense

I don't know how that means something relevant in this context.

It means the "devils words" made someone do something against their will. It was an old Flip Wilson line also.

[Caffiene]

The words weren't the problem. It's was the ordering of the genocide that was the crime. Of course he had use words to convey his message.

"His message" being another way of saying "his opinion", which you said doesnt count.

I doubt if he used some mafia euphimism for kill all the jews and gypsies.

Of course. It wouldnt surprise me if he directly told people "Go and kill those jews".  Id still describe that as "His words and opinion influenced others".

Don't tell me you buy the "the devil made me do it" defense?

Not at all. The disagreement is with your premise that just because it was only words and opinions that that makes somebody not responsible for harm:

I dislike hate speech but I dislike muzzled speech even more. I think it is OK to yell fire in a crowded theater. If any harm comes from it, you pay the consequences. If no harm comes from it, you probably should just be thrown out. Are we going to make it illegal for someone to call me hispanic? I hate it when people do that.

what does "harm comes from it" mean? (think of the heckler's veto; think of radical Muslim responses to newspaper comic strips. does the speaker get any blame for the violence that happened in response to their words in this scenario of 'paying for the consequences'?)

No harm comes from words (which also means thought), only actions. The problem with the muslim cartoons isn't the cartoonist. It's the loony muslims who went after him who should suffer the consequences. It's the same as if I trotted up to the local Hells Angels chapter and called them a bunch of Mongols.

Hitler is a counter-example. The nazi soldiers under him absolutely are responsible for their actions, but the discussion is that your logic here leads to the conclusion that the nazi soldiers were responsible for their actions and that Hitler wasnt a problem because he did nothing but voice his words and opinions and therefore isnt responsible for the actions the soldiers took. The comparative statement to the examples in your post would be "The problem with WW2 wasnt Hitler. Its the loony soldiers who followed his opinions who should suffer the consequences."

Most people would disagree, and would say that although the soldiers were responsible for their own actions, Hitler was still responsible as well.

[GodSlayer]

the "the devil made me do it" defense

I don't know how that means something relevant in this context.

It means the "devils words" made someone do something against their will. It was an old Flip Wilson line also.

what would that have to do with this? 'made him do' what? speak? who cares what made him do something so innocent.