Topic: Episode #349

[Jeremy's Sea]

For you.

I think we need a compromise. A unit that is half of a celsius degree, starts at freezing point of water at zero so 100 would be what a hundred and six farienheit

I think changing the freezing point of water would be easier than getting me to learn a new system... 

[lazyshoegazer]

Started listening to the podcast not too long ago and have enjoyed it since subscribing -- coming from out of bounds in the "Social Science" finally found something to chime in on and wanted to comment concerning one of the many reasons why the United States has been slow to adopt the Metric system outside scientific/technological fields. 

Although I have not performed a formal study on the topic, I have worked in the field of trade regulation, and I might suggest that a portion of the reluctance to switch to the metric system might be related to trade protectionism. 

By having a standard that is, more or less, only used in the United States and so rooted in our society, the adherence to the imperial system of measurement is a de facto barrier to entry for foreign manufacturers to export to the United States -- typically only larger manufacturers that are less exposed to risk are willing to retool their manufacturing process, change packaging standards, etc. to meet the cultural measurement standards in the United States.

Conversely, since the metric system is used globally, it's easier and sensible for U.S. manufacturers to create separate lines of production for export and domestic production; theoretically it also allows them to segment the global market for larger profits.  One way you can think of it is that the lingua franca of global manufacturing is the metric system and the Imperial system is the vernacular of the United States. 

I am not sure how deliberate this is on the behalf of U.S. exporters, but since supplier/consumer behavior plays a large part of adopting standards, it wouldn't surprise me if this is obstacle to adopting the metric system.

[Miisanthrope]

Also, for everyday purposes like weather reports or the temperature of a bath or swimming pool, you rarely need to be more accurate than a few degrees C, so I don't really feel at a disadvantage compared to Fahrenheit users in this regard.

good point.
don't think I've ever seen a decimal point in any weather report.

That happens when they are reporting on such things as new temperature records and such, but it would be overly optimistic or at least overly confident to the point of absurdity for the forecaster to predict something like "it will be 11,7°C tomorrow".

how is this any different to saying 'rabbit' (Eng) is more intuitive than 'kani' (Fin) or 'lapin' (Fre)?

A non-issue; "kani" is clearly and objectively the best, due to its conciseness, clarity and spelling/pronounciation consistency.

[GodSlayer]

Also, for everyday purposes like weather reports or the temperature of a bath or swimming pool, you rarely need to be more accurate than a few degrees C, so I don't really feel at a disadvantage compared to Fahrenheit users in this regard.

good point.
don't think I've ever seen a decimal point in any weather report.

That happens when they are reporting on such things as new temperature records and such, but it would be overly optimistic or at least overly confident to the point of absurdity for the forecaster to predict something like "it will be 11,7°C tomorrow".

are there numbers in F that have the intuitive 'feel' of being comparably absurd? I mean, is it common to say 'it will be 60/65/70' rather than '61' or '69' or something else that, from my decimal outlook, looks awfully specific?

[Miisanthrope]

are there numbers in F that have the intuitive 'feel' of being comparably absurd? I mean, is it common to say 'it will be 60/65/70' rather than '61' or '69' or something else that, from my decimal outlook, looks awfully specific?

Good question, I would guess not as much, although it still seems to me awfully confident of them if they go to 66 rather than rounding it to 65. But that could just depend on what people are used to.

[Chew]

That happens when they are reporting on such things as new temperature records and such, but it would be overly optimistic or at least overly confident to the point of absurdity for the forecaster to predict something like "it will be 11,7°C tomorrow".

I am completely in favor of the metric system but using a comma for a decimal point is just so bizarre. 

[lonely moa]

For me the natural freezing point of water is 32 and it boils at 212. Zero is where salt water freezes.

Salt water freezes at different temperatures depending on the amount of salt. A quick google says it can freeze at anywhere between 32^oF (zero salt) and -6^oF (maximum salt saturation), and seawater freezes at about 27 or 28^oF.

add the right bacteria or chemical and water freezes at considerably warmer temperatues than 0^o.

[Anders]

obviously familiarity trumps all, you can get used to almost anything.

My point is - unlike other metric systems that are base 10, there is no real advantage to Celsius. And I like the range of Fahreneheit - it is more useful for everyday use.

Although, if you do science (where the default is K) you'll have to do a lot of transformations back and forth. Unless you propose to remake the SI-system?

It's really a package deal. You want the SI system, you use Kelvin.

[Nicolas Baker]

I am an avid lucid dreamer, and contrary to Steven Novella's comments, I wouldn't brush off lucid dreaming as "a lighter version of lucidity" (justified by the fact that the brain is in a dreaming state). I think that realizing how constructed perception is (how everything seen in the dream is in fact internal) is quite a feat of lucidity ! During the waking state, it is impossible to realize this, because perception is guided by our senses.
Obviously, the brain is in an interesting state, different from that of waking life. But as a lucid dreamer, you can recall different missions (as they did in the experiment), and access your long term memory.
Of course all depends on the degree of lucidity. Personally, I have never felt as lucid, and aware of the constructed nature of reality/perception as I have during a lucid dream.

[Pak]

Tell me, for everyday use, what is the advantage of Celsius? It's a linear scale, just like Fahrenheit, and the whole base 10 thing does not apply.

There are two relevant factors - being fixed to a physical property, and the range of typical use. Celsius has a slight advantage in that freezing is zero, but this is no big deal, By the time Amercans are 5 years old they know that water freezes at 32 degrees. The fact that in Celsius water boils at 100 degrees matters not at all in everyday use. There is no inherent advantage to that - it does not make Celsius easier to work with. And it is ultimately arbitrary.

The range of typical use is much better for Fahrenheit than for Celsius. The origin of Fahrenheit is irrelevant to this fact.

I think your point of a linear scale is well made. But I dunno, what % of the population experiences the range of typical use  0-100 F? If, say, most people see variation of 60F, then doesn't your argument fail?
Here, we seldom see 0C let alone 0F, and 110 is routine.  I cannot  visualise 0F, so how can it be my typical use? Or the typical use of the majority of Indians, or Africans.
I could see you might argue it  represents a some typical variation of human existence, but its already 10% off for me, and I expect those Canadians will tell you they see well below 0F.
 
I think the compelling argument to standardise wordwide to be the benefits of quick understanding. However quickly you can convert F to C  and back must always be slower and more error prone  than no conversion at all. And Kelvin is cool but thats its problem.

[Old Hoplite]

John Keegan once wrote: "Left to themselves, Americans build, cultivate, bridge, dam, canalise, invent, teach, manufacture, think, write, lock themselves in struggle with the eternal challenges that man has chosen to confront, and with an intensity not known elsewhere on the globe.  . . and think of work as an end in itself."

Simply put Americans continue to use the english system of measurments with the metric system trailing along for specfic needs: talking to our allies, in science, for trade, etc. because it works and works well for us.  Once it stops working then we will switch, but not before.

[Steven Novella]

One degree F is not too specific. Room temperature is 72 F - not 70, not 75. Pool temp, likewise, you can feel every 1-2 degrees change.

Also, weather maps, you can show temperature fronts divided by 10s - where the temp is in the 50s, 60s, etc.

I am not saying it's a big deal. If we decided to switch to Celsius I would adapt. My point remains - the temp range of F is more optimal for typical everyday use, and Celsius is not really "metric" in the way that meters and liters are, there is no base 10, and fixing 100 to the boiling point of water (at 1 atmosphere, mind you) is arbitrary and all but useless to the average user. In short - Celsius is not inherently superior (while meters and liters are), so the only reason I can see for switching is just to match the rest of the world. I don't see that as a compelling reason for temperature. Everything else, yes.

[Anders]

I was talking about Kelvin. And if you use Kelvin, Celsius comes along for the ride.

Another compelling reason is that Celsius was Swedish.

[seaotter]

For you.

I think we need a compromise. A unit that is half of a celsius degree, starts at freezing point of water at zero so 100 would be what a hundred and six farienheit

I think changing the freezing point of water would be easier than getting me to learn a new system... 

Silly American! 

[Shadow Of A Doubt]

I was talking about Kelvin. And if you use Kelvin, Celsius comes along for the ride.

This is what I was trying to say earlier in the thread.