Topic: Controversial Topics???

[Squarebanks]

Even as an environmental scientist, I think that its premature to talk of banning the practice of fracking. Like any other method of resource extraction, it can be done in a responsible manner. The companies simply must be held responsible in the event of an environmental contamination.

The resistance to hydraulic fracturing advancement is similar to the resistance to GMO crops. We have to balance the potential benefits with the potential danger. I don't see any compelling evidence that supports the widespread fear of an out-of-control GMO seeds, and I haven't seen any case of a major contamination of groundwater by fracking.

[Jordan]

RE: fracking

Yes, people disagree, and it's definitely a "controversial topic"

However, I think that the topic that's often neglected when talking about fracking is climate change, which it will have a dramatic impact on. Natural gas obtained from fracking actually produces more greenhouse gas emissions than coal. Here's the first full peer-reviewed paper on the subject: http://www.sustainablefuture.cornell.edu/news/attachments/Howarth-EtAl-2011.pdf. There are other studies too, but I can't seem to find any of the them quickly and I'm short on time.

Even setting these numbers aside, we simply cannot afford to continue exploiting new sources of fossil fuels if we want to have any chance of avoiding runaway climate change which we will be unable to stop.

The other detriments of fracking are likely significant, including spills (http://www.nytimes.com/gwire/2011/05/04/04greenwire-pa-well-blowout-tests-natural-gas-industry-on-36297.html), explosions (http://www.theithacajournal.com/article/20120329/NEWS01/203290398/Explosion-natural-gas-compressor-station), decreases in home property values and a wide range of other economic, environmental and social impacts.

In terms of drilling rights, in New York at least, most people DO own their mineral rights, but using a legal strategy called "compulsory integration," natural gas can be extracted from under your land without your permission as long as 60% of your neighbors sign leases.

The really big thing for me, however, is the climate change risk. If we keep pushing natural gas instead of working to rapidly transition towards sustainable energy, we simply can't win the fight to keep our climate remotely stable.

[Shadow Of A Doubt]

Devolution is a process that happened to Scotland 13 years ago and is believed by some to be a first-step of a major speciation event between the Scottish and the English.

[Johnny Slick]

What about Devolution? Is that even possible to happen to us?

There is no such thing as devolution because evolution doesn't have a preferred direction. So bacteria are exactly as evolved as us, they just don't need intelligence or our complexity to thrive in their survival niche.

Just as importantly, once a given species has taken a given "path" to being what it is, it is no more able to go backwards on that particular path than you or I are capable of going back in time. If equines ever need to climb trees they more than likely aren't going to be able to "regrow" those toes that have shrunk into and in back of that one big toe that makes up their hoof. That one finger might become prehensile and maybe said finger would grow appendages of its own in time but there is very little evolutionary advantage for any one horse or zebra or whatever to have a slightly larger 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th toes than the rest of the population. Sure, them all being elongated by several inches would probably help in this theoretical environment but mutations generally don't work like that.

[ralius]

So devolution is baloney.

Global Warming is real, but hardly anything we can do about it.

But Fracking... My school is pretty much trying to get everyone to be on the side against it, and it's starting to grow into the whole town community.
Is there anything I should do about this, or just go with the flow?

[ralius]

Also, as for the Gun Control thing...
Where the hell did that come from???

[Soldier of FORTRAN]

Also, as for the Gun Control thing...
Where the hell did that come from???

Gun control was an issue that really stuck with a lot of people.  I was a little young for Clinton's era but I seem to recall a great deal of hubbub coming out of the left during the 90s.   Criticism of the Assault Weapons Ban was made quite a lasting impression because of how much more effective said criticisms were than a weapons bill focusing on aesthetics rather than lethality. 

Two majors issues regarding gun control as a political issue is the state-to-state variability in laws that's normally overlooked and also the seeming nonexistence of clean statistics.

From what I've seen, the most supportable would be to advocate for tightening up lax states and increasing enforcement where ever there are problems.  Everything past that is largely speculative.

[andrewclunn]

Let's not turn this into another gun control thread, or I may have to start shooting 

[ting-bu-dong]

Global Warming is real, but hardly anything we can do about it.

I don't think that's the consensus around here. Global warming isn't my topic so I don't know just what it would take to achieve which impact, but the general sense is that while it would take large scale global cooperation, it would be doable.

[andrewclunn]

Global Warming is real, but hardly anything we can do about it.

I don't think that's the consensus around here. Global warming isn't my topic so I don't know just what it would take to achieve which impact, but the general sense is that while it would take large scale global cooperation, it would be doable.

In other words there's nothing we can do about it.

[ting-bu-dong]

Global Warming is real, but hardly anything we can do about it.

I don't think that's the consensus around here. Global warming isn't my topic so I don't know just what it would take to achieve which impact, but the general sense is that while it would take large scale global cooperation, it would be doable.

In other words there's nothing we can do about it.

I wouldn't be that pessimistic. It's been done before with things like CFCs, though that was much more limited in scope and 20 years ago the US hadn't completed its transition to the reality show as a form of government yet.

[Jordan]

So devolution is baloney.

Global Warming is real, but hardly anything we can do about it.

But Fracking... My school is pretty much trying to get everyone to be on the side against it, and it's starting to grow into the whole town community.
Is there anything I should do about this, or just go with the flow?

Where are you from?

I'm in NY, and there's a HUGE movement against fracking building up right now--we actually have a chance to win and start pushing ourselves in the right directions!

In terms of climate change, there is a strong change that we won't "win," in fact, we've already changed the climate a lot.

However, personally I feel a moral responsibility to fight to stop it. I don't want to look back in 40 years and say to the kids then who are wondering why climate change keeps getting worse and there's no way to stop it that I knew what was going on and that I just continued on with my daily life because it was too hard to do anything else. By not fighting back, we are bystanders to the terrible atrocity of our governments refusing to act in the interest of future generations. We need to fight back not to protect polar bears or tree frogs (although those are pretty cool...) but to try to stop massive crop failures and famines and wars over water and other human disasters that will be brought about as a result of climate change. In my opinion, there is no moral way to give up in this fight and say "well, there's no point in fighting this one."

In other words, if "we the people" aren't going to fight this fight, when will we ever fight for anything?

Sorry for the long/ranting post, but this is something that I think about a lot... like all the time, and I'm pretty passionate about it.

(click to show/hide)

It's 3:23 in the morning and I'm awake
Because my great, great grandchildren won't let me sleep
My great, great grandchildren ask me in dreams
What did you do while the planet was plundered?
What did you do when the earth was unraveling?
Surely you did something when the seasons started failing?
As the mammals, reptiles, birds were all dying?
Did you fill the streets with protest when democracy was stolen?
What did you do once you knew?
-Drew Dellinger

[andrewclunn]

I'm anti-fracking because of the abuses of property rights and the way local governments are bought off to force fracking through on people who don't want it.  I don't want a full ban on fracking for moral environmental reasons.  I used to be a member of the research team for the local chapter of hyrdo relief web and I'm very much against hydrofracking until the laws change to protect property owners, but damn it, so many of these environmentalists knew NOTHING about it before making up their mind and some of the scare tactics pushed forward are just dishonest.  Of course, there's been quite a bit of dishonesty from the companies doing the fracking regarding the likelihood of mistakes resulting in additional human and environmental costs.

I get so sick of people arguing, "Poor people need these jobs!", "We need to protect the environment for our children!", "There's an energy crisis with oil prices rising!", "People are getting sick and suffering!"  It's all about what's supposedly best for everybody and nobody stops to say, "Hey, maybe the people who own the land should get to decide what to do, but they should be given accurate information to help them make that decision."  Nobody wants that.  The companies want to use imminent domain and local governments to force fracking through, and the anti-fracking environmentalists want a ban throughout the state. 

[Jordan]

"Hey, maybe the people who own the land should get to decide what to do, but they should be given accurate information to help them make that decision."  Nobody wants that.  The companies want to use imminent domain and local governments to force fracking through, and the anti-fracking environmentalists want a ban throughout the state.

Thing is, it's not just those landowners who will be affected. What about their neighbors who have to deal with the increased truck traffic and decrease in property value in areas being drilled? What about those who use local creeks for other purposes and would be harmed by water withdrawals? What about people who drink from municipal water systems that could be contaminated if there was a spill or blowout? What about people my age (and a bit older, and everybody younger... I'm not talking about some mythical "children") who will be directly impacted by climate change caused largely by the burning of fossil fuels?

People should have control over their land and what happens on it in many ways, but it cannot be a free-for-all.

[andrewclunn]

Oh and what about the property value of individuals in the 50s and the 60s when a black family moved in next door?  It did lower their property's resale value.  Should they have had a right to stop that from happening to protect their own property's value?  What about the light pollution caused by my neighbor's front porch lights depriving me of a clear view of the sky?  Do I not have a right to see the stars unimpeded by all this unneeded light pollution?  When people eat fatty foods it tends to cause health problems, and since the poor tend to have such a fatty unhealthy diet, and also not have health insurance, the costs of their emergency care are passed on to me!  Do I not then have a right to pass laws to restrict the sale of certain unhealthy foods, if not only for their sake, for my own?

You can follow that type of argument all day, insisting that you know what's best for other people, and claiming the right to assert your values on others for their own good.  That's a non-starter for me.  I've been down that road ideologically and I don't like where it leads.  Let people act as their own advocates.  Don't pretend like you're concerned about the traffic on their road.  We all know that's not why you oppose hydrofracking, and it's disingenuous to say otherwise.