Author Topic: Is Creationism or God Falsifiable?  (Read 1880 times)

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Offline jomike

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Re: Is Creationism or God Falsifiable?
« Reply #30 on: Apr 07, 2012, 05:17:14 PM »
Hey, I already used that quote in this thread.

I missed that, sorry.  I guess it goes to show how apt that quote is, how well it expresses the notion of falsifiability.

Creationism is not really much of an explanation in any case.  If science is involved in ID, it is explaining how God did it.  The only problem is that once that explanation is in place, God is no longer necessary.

Heh.  One of the fun things about ID is the contortions its proponents subject themselves to in denying that the theory implies anything about the existence or nature of the Designer.  Creationists, OTOH, are just so darned honest, and boring.

Offline Shibboleth

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Re: Is Creationism or God Falsifiable?
« Reply #31 on: Apr 07, 2012, 11:31:24 PM »
Any testable claim is falsifiable.
common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.

Offline jt512

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Re: Is Creationism or God Falsifiable?
« Reply #32 on: Apr 08, 2012, 01:02:50 AM »
Any testable claim is falsifiable.

Explain how the concepts of testability and falsifiability differ.   If you cannot do so, then all you have done is to have defined "testable" as "falsifiable."

Jay
« Last Edit: Apr 08, 2012, 01:08:16 AM by jt512 »

Offline jt512

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Re: Is Creationism or God Falsifiable?
« Reply #33 on: Apr 08, 2012, 01:05:36 AM »
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Offline IrishJazz

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Re: Is Creationism or God Falsifiable?
« Reply #34 on: Apr 08, 2012, 09:21:03 AM »
Any testable claim is falsifiable.

Explain how the concepts of testability and falsifiability differ.   If you cannot do so, then all you have done is to have defined "testable" as "falsifiable."


Falsifiable is a logical term.  It means that based on the premises, following logical processes, a statement is either true or false.

Testability sets/verifies premises. For example, we can establish that sun contains helium through comparison of the spectral absorption lines compared with laboratory helium.  We can tell it is not a molten ball of gold by the lack of gold emission lines.   
 
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Offline Shibboleth

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Re: Is Creationism or God Falsifiable?
« Reply #35 on: Apr 08, 2012, 11:04:27 AM »
The existence of God could be falsified if it was proven that the universe had no beginning.

Only if there was a claim that, "My God can only exist if the universe had a beginning." Which is a testable claim.

"There is a God" isn't a testable claim no more than "there is a booga booga bong bong" is a testable claim. That is why the social scientists rely on operational definitions. The definition of something has to be a testable claim.
« Last Edit: Apr 08, 2012, 11:06:51 AM by Shibboleth »
common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.

Offline Shibboleth

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Re: Is Creationism or God Falsifiable?
« Reply #36 on: Apr 08, 2012, 11:11:11 AM »


Falsifiable is a logical term.  It means that based on the premises, following logical processes, a statement is either true or false.


Yes, you can falsify a statement through logic in certain situations.

1. All people in Seville get their hair cut by the barber.
2. John lives in Seville.

If the two premises are true the following statement has to be false.

3. John cuts his own hair.
common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.

Offline Belgarath

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Re: Is Creationism or God Falsifiable?
« Reply #37 on: Apr 08, 2012, 12:03:11 PM »
Define the two terms and you're most of the way to determining a test for each of them. 

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Offline Fast Eddie B

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Re: Is Creationism or God Falsifiable?
« Reply #38 on: Apr 08, 2012, 04:45:42 PM »
Define the two terms and you're most of the way to determining a test for each of them.

I would say creationism as currently understood is not only falsifiable, but has been falsified.

IOW, if the popularly held claim is that man and all the animals were created in their current form in the last 10,000 years or so, many fields of science have already falsified that claim. Or at least provided hypotheses and a theory that far better explain the diversity of life on the planet.

Intelligent design is a stickier wicket. If the claim is that and unspecified intelligence is gently guiding evolution by causing mutations favorable to some predetermined goal in an undefined manner, I would agree that that is unfalsifiable. And, I suppose, remotely possible. But NOT science.
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Offline Ajzzz

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Re: Is Creationism or God Falsifiable?
« Reply #39 on: Apr 08, 2012, 05:46:29 PM »
Intelligent design is a stickier wicket. If the claim is that and unspecified intelligence is gently guiding evolution by causing mutations favorable to some predetermined goal in an undefined manner, I would agree that that is unfalsifiable. And, I suppose, remotely possible. But NOT science.

That's not what Intelligent Design is, you've described theistic evolution.

Offline jt512

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Re: Is Creationism or God Falsifiable?
« Reply #40 on: Apr 08, 2012, 06:59:21 PM »
Any testable claim is falsifiable.

Explain how the concepts of testability and falsifiability differ.   If you cannot do so, then all you have done is to have defined "testable" as "falsifiable."


Falsifiable is a logical term.  It means that based on the premises, following logical processes, a statement is either true or false.

No, that is not what "falsifiable" means.  A hypothesis is falsifiable if it could be contradicted, if false, by an observation.  As Wikipedia says:

Quote
Falsifiability or refutability of an assertion, hypothesis or theory is the logical possibility that it can be contradicted by an observation or the outcome of a physical experiment. That something is "falsifiable" does not mean it is false; rather, that if it is false, then some observation or experiment will produce a reproducible result that is in conflict with it.

Jay

Offline Fast Eddie B

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Re: Is Creationism or God Falsifiable?
« Reply #41 on: Apr 08, 2012, 07:36:57 PM »

That's not what Intelligent Design is, you've described theistic evolution.

OK, maybe I'm confused, but isn't that how many think Intelligent Design works?

I mean, many IDer's like Behe accept evolution. They just propose that evolution by itself is insufficient somehow due to irreducible complexity. So how else would a designer operate other than guide the process? And how to guide it other than futz with mutations?

How do YOU define Intelligent Design?

Just wondering, because I'm probably conflating concepts here.
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Offline Ajzzz

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Re: Is Creationism or God Falsifiable?
« Reply #42 on: Apr 08, 2012, 08:01:24 PM »

That's not what Intelligent Design is, you've described theistic evolution.

OK, maybe I'm confused, but isn't that how many think Intelligent Design works?

I mean, many IDer's like Behe accept evolution. They just propose that evolution by itself is insufficient somehow due to irreducible complexity. So how else would a designer operate other than guide the process? And how to guide it other than futz with mutations?

How do YOU define Intelligent Design?

Just wondering, because I'm probably conflating concepts here.

The idea is that aspects of nature, such as organs are too complex to have evolved, irreducible complexity means that something such as an organ couldn't have evolved, the parts are irreducible, none of the parts work without the others, therefore there cannot have been a precursor organ, therefore evolution could not have occurred. Intelligent Design is a statement that evolution as a description of nature, the origin of species, is false. Intelligent Design is just creationism with different language.

Theistic evolution, which many of the opponents of Intelligent Design believe in, does not state that anything is irreducibly complex, they believe that evolution is a correct description of nature, the origin of species. They believe that a god intervenes not to solve problems, they accept that everything at present could evolve on its own, but to select for whatever its plan is, which is what you described. Theistic evolutionists believe in evolution, they're not creationists.

Intelligent Designers, as creationists, deny evolution occurs (selectively, but then most creationists accept dogs came from wolves, so most of them are selective). Theistic evolutionists accept evolution but believe in miracles, like a lot of Christian scientists. Both views are deeply flawed, but creationists deny reality, which is worse.
« Last Edit: Apr 09, 2012, 11:03:50 AM by Ajzzz »

Offline IrishJazz

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Re: Is Creationism or God Falsifiable?
« Reply #43 on: Apr 08, 2012, 09:56:00 PM »
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No, that is not what "falsifiable" means.  A hypothesis is falsifiable if it could be contradicted, if false, by an observation.  As Wikipedia says:

Quote
Falsifiability or refutability of an assertion, hypothesis or theory is the logical possibility that it can be contradicted by an observation or the outcome of a physical experiment. That something is "falsifiable" does not mean it is false; rather, that if it is false, then some observation or experiment will produce a reproducible result that is in conflict with it.

Jay

I stand partially corrected.  There is a difference between testing and observation.  Darwin derived the theory of evolution through observation.  Mendel discovered the rules of genetics through testing.
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Offline jt512

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Re: Is Creationism or God Falsifiable?
« Reply #44 on: Apr 08, 2012, 11:00:35 PM »
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No, that is not what "falsifiable" means.  A hypothesis is falsifiable if it could be contradicted, if false, by an observation.  As Wikipedia says:

Quote
Falsifiability or refutability of an assertion, hypothesis or theory is the logical possibility that it can be contradicted by an observation or the outcome of a physical experiment. That something is "falsifiable" does not mean it is false; rather, that if it is false, then some observation or experiment will produce a reproducible result that is in conflict with it.

Jay

I stand partially corrected.  There is a difference between testing and observation.  Darwin derived the theory of evolution through observation.  Mendel discovered the rules of genetics through testing.

At least one of us is misunderstanding the other's point. 

A falsifiable hypothesis is one that can be disproved by contradictory empirical evidence.  It doesn't matter whether you differentiate between empirical evidence gained from observation, experiment and "testing."  What matters is that it is empirical.

I still don't know what you mean by "testable," and how you think it differs from "falsifiable."

Jay
« Last Edit: Apr 08, 2012, 11:09:29 PM by jt512 »