Author Topic: The Logistical Impossibility of the Exodus of Isreal  (Read 1414 times)

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Offline AxeGrrl

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Re: The Logistical Impossibility of the Exodus of Isreal
« Reply #30 on: Apr 11, 2012, 04:52:13 AM »

And with the Pharoah already ready to capitulate, why "harden his heart" just for a chance to impose more suffering?



It's simply mind-boggling how many different 'arguments' (translation: spin) I've heard that attempt to negate the fact that it was 'God' that hardened Pharoah's heart........

just staggering.

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Offline Desert Fox

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Re: The Logistical Impossibility of the Exodus of Isreal
« Reply #31 on: Apr 11, 2012, 10:38:27 AM »
People are surprised that they cannot find artifacts of Hannibal's march. We are talking about tens of thousands of soldiers, several thousand horses, and a handful of elephants.

They are still turning up cities in Egypt that they have been looking for for a long time. The desert changes quite a bit. If you are talking about 100 thousand people moving about the desert sure.... a few hundred? I just do not think that evidence would be easy to find and identify.

One item is that we have had hundreds of armies wander around that area. I will bet that we have found artifacts of Hannibal's armies but we cannot positively identify them because of the amount of trade and flow of armies through the area. Now, apparently there is a school of thought that Hannibal may not have existed as well.

Whenever we are dealing with history, we are dealing with probabilities. Archaeologists have been looking for any groups wandering around  the Sinai. They did find evidence of other groups, even smaller groups, wandering around the Sinai.  The statement that probably not even a smaller version of the Exodus even happen is a reasonable statement. Maybe this will be revised later but waiting on more evidence.
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Offline Shibboleth

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Re: The Logistical Impossibility of the Exodus of Isreal
« Reply #32 on: Apr 11, 2012, 12:18:58 PM »

One item is that we have had hundreds of armies wander around that area.

Hundreds of ancient armies went across the Alps? I am not even trying to comment on the Exodus. Personally I think that it is wrong to find any meaning in Old Testament numbers.

Sure you are going to find smaller groups of people. We have found smaller towns in the Middle East while at the same time have been unable to locate some of the missing larger settlements believed to have existed. The Exodus as written in the Bible certainly didn't happen. I am not willing to say that we can conclude that there wasn't a Moses that left Egypt with a group of people and were nomadic for a long time.
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Offline Desert Fox

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Re: The Logistical Impossibility of the Exodus of Isreal
« Reply #33 on: Apr 11, 2012, 12:32:04 PM »
Hundreds of ancient armies went across the Alps? I am not even trying to comment on the Exodus. Personally I think that it is wrong to find any meaning in Old Testament numbers.

Mostly Roman armies marching into Gaul and Spain (and in some cases the opposite way as well). . . .
The number of armies marching back and forth are incredible. These are common routes in antiquity.

The areas in the Sinai are not common routes. . .Now if we move the story to a small number of proto-Hebrews wandering  through the common Egypt / Canaanite trade routes, my answer becomes "No Shit." Happened thousands of times.
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Offline JD Holwick

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Re: The Logistical Impossibility of the Exodus of Isreal
« Reply #34 on: Apr 22, 2012, 10:05:05 PM »
As with other areas, the onus really is on those trying to prove the account not disprove it.

i couldn't agree more with this statement.  oddly enough, i was having a conversation with a committed christian just the other day about the absolute lack of any sign of israelite exodus in the desert and the response was, "well, i don't know if i trust the archaeology."  christians will believe whatever they must, no matter how great the opposing evidence.  ---  jdh
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Offline Johnny Slick

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Re: The Logistical Impossibility of the Exodus of Isreal
« Reply #35 on: Apr 22, 2012, 11:02:13 PM »
I have to go back to Professor Breyer on this. These things rarely were made up completely out of whole cloth, and there is at least a plausible case for an exodus which was a. much, much smaller than the one mentioned in the Bible but still extant, b. not associated with nearly all of those plagues, which, even if you did believe in higher powers just seems like overkill to me, and c. pretty well exaggerated in other places as well ( for example, no way did peeps wander around for a full 40 years before discovering Canaan unless said wandering is code for "led a purposefully nomadic existence", which itself is a bit contradictory to Moses' stated intentions).

That being said, it's not completely out of the ordinary for something like what this would be - a small scale slave revolt in the Nile delta area which was aided by some lucky weather - to be ignored in the Egyptian annals. There are several battles with the Assyrians which the Egyptians lost, for instance, that aren't recorded in Egyptian history much at all but were pretty well documented by the other party. Egypt, or maybe what I should say is "what we have left of Egypt", had a really bad habit of passing over the bad parts in favor of the good. Given that most of what we have left are inscriptions on monuments and etchings in the graves of pharaohs this isn't so unreasonable (compare and contrast with the Greeks and Romans, from whom we have lots and lots of written documentation and histories... if all we had of the Roman Empire were Trajan's Column and the various buildings of the emperors, we wouldn't know much of anything about Teutoburg Forest or Cannae or any number of major Roman defeats).

In a perfect world you'd be able to say that the Jewish exodus is an extraordinary claim which requires extraordinary proof. History, particularly lightly documented ancient history, isn't so clean-cut so as to easily differentiate exaggeration from outright falsehood though. Treating the Old Testament as a historical document with the same amount of accuracy as, I don't know, the chronicles of Gilgamesh or whatever, I don't think you can necessarily emerge from it thinking "oh, this is obviously a whole bunch of their version of fantasy literature".
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Offline daemonowner

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Re: The Logistical Impossibility of the Exodus of Isreal
« Reply #36 on: Apr 29, 2012, 08:57:57 PM »
You would think a group of millions of jews wandering around egypt for 40 years would be like that snake arcade game. Eventually the head would just walk into their own body..
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Offline Neon Genesis

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Re: The Logistical Impossibility of the Exodus of Isreal
« Reply #37 on: Apr 29, 2012, 09:49:28 PM »
Didn't James Cameron co-produce some documentary with the Naked Archeologist guy that claimed to be able to scientifically prove the Exodus account?

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Re: The Logistical Impossibility of the Exodus of Isreal
« Reply #38 on: Apr 29, 2012, 09:54:01 PM »
Didn't James Cameron co-produce some documentary with the Naked Archeologist guy that claimed to be able to scientifically prove the Exodus account?


Yep. The Exodus Decoded
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Offline LumpyFish

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Re: The Logistical Impossibility of the Exodus of Isreal
« Reply #39 on: Apr 30, 2012, 06:21:33 AM »
And I gather that the linguistical reasons for saying 'family' rather than thousand are really stretched.

You speak ancient Hebrew?

Offline Desert Fox

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Re: The Logistical Impossibility of the Exodus of Isreal
« Reply #40 on: Apr 30, 2012, 06:29:07 AM »
We can read material written by people who do. . . .
The idea that it means families seems to represent the minority view
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— Robert G. Ingersoll