Topic: Ban on Gideon Bible handout at public schools sparks torrent of hate mail

[Halleyscomet/Wakefield]

I remember when the Gideons came to my University to pass out Bibles.

The University had an official affiliation with the Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod. Every student was required to take three religion classes before graduating and one of the required textbooks was a Bible. They were passing out New Testaments + Psalms at a school where EVERYONE already had a full NIV and many students had a KJV or RSV as well. I asked one of them why they were bothering, as it seemed a redundant waste or resources, but he just nodded politely and offered me a New Testament.

I made a mental note to never give the Gideons any money as they clearly put no thought into where they distributed Bibles. I was still quite religious then, and I remember thinking that "evangelism is not a matter of carpet bombing Bibles."

[DCLimey]

We got them in RE. I got detention because my dog chewed it in half. Good dog.

Apparently they're popular in prisons. Those lovely thin pages are so much softer than prison issue toilet paper.

[AxeGrrl]

I remember when the Gideons came to my University to pass out Bibles.

Well, at least that's not targeting children.

[Shibboleth]

Canadian atheists should get together and organize a movement to distribute copies of The God Delusion in public schools and see how that goes over.

Any time you had out something that appears to be directly attacking another group you are going to get negative backlash. Handing out Bibles isn't going to get near the negative response as handing out something that says, "Why the Jews are Wrong."

Of course we know this because the title of the book is meant to convey an emotional response.

[Neon Genesis]

Any time you had out something that appears to be directly attacking another group you are going to get negative backlash. Handing out Bibles isn't going to get near the negative response as handing out something that says, "Why the Jews are Wrong."

Of course we know this because the title of the book is meant to convey an emotional response.

Like that time a public school suddenly stopped refusing to allow anyone to distribute religious literature at school after a mother started distirbuting Wiccan literature on school?  Clearly she must have been attacking Christians.

[Halleyscomet/Wakefield]

Any time you had out something that appears to be directly attacking another group you are going to get negative backlash. Handing out Bibles isn't going to get near the negative response as handing out something that says, "Why the Jews are Wrong."

Of course we know this because the title of the book is meant to convey an emotional response.

Like that time a public school suddenly stopped refusing to allow anyone to distribute religious literature at school after a mother started distirbuting Wiccan literature on school?  Clearly she must have been attacking Christians.

I like to think they realized that "Separation of Church and State" protected their kids from influences they didn't want and wasn't a tool for "oppressing" the dominant religion in the country.

[TheIrreverend]

Interestingly, Canada doesn't have official separation of church and state, or official secularism.  Section 2 of the Charter grants freedom of religion but that's about it.  In fact, the preamble to the Constitution Act, 1982 states:

Whereas Canada is founded upon principles that recognize the supremacy of God and the rule of law . . .

Canadian jurisprudence has deemed the preamble to be of no legal force, but it is still interesting to compare the official secularism and separation of the US and the fervent religiosity with Canada's much less forceful legal situation and relatively laid back attitude to religion and significant non-religious population.

[goodthink]

There has been a long battle in my city about this issue. When we bought a house here  5 years ago, they sent home a notice asking if I wanted my kid to get a bible to take home.


I was outraged. I contacted the school about and was told Canada has no separation of church and state, class  time wasn't being allocated, the distribution was  voluntary and the kids weren't required to take home the bible.


I quickly learned the teachers and administration were apathetic on the issue, and the only zealots were the ones who volunteered to give out the bibles.


I was contacted by the local paper. The reporter seemed to get it, but when her article was published there was just one vanilla line by me about not liking the idea (no reasons) quickly followed by the school board saying I was persecuting Christians.


The paper did publish an editorial of mine however, and that sparked a debate within the paper for the last 4 years. Finally, after a Muslim group approached the school board with Korans the district has decided NOT to distribute bibles any more.


Very happy with the outcome, but Christians are a scary lot. Any time someone attacks the new Atheists as constructing arguments against straw man theists I just think of how Christians react to stuff like this and roll my eyes. Christianity, for the the most part is an semi-organized hate group. They organize around the things they hate the most.

[seaotter]

Born again secularists!

[Shibboleth]

Any time you had out something that appears to be directly attacking another group you are going to get negative backlash. Handing out Bibles isn't going to get near the negative response as handing out something that says, "Why the Jews are Wrong."

Of course we know this because the title of the book is meant to convey an emotional response.

Like that time a public school suddenly stopped refusing to allow anyone to distribute religious literature at school after a mother started distirbuting Wiccan literature on school?  Clearly she must have been attacking Christians.

I didn't say there wouldn't be a negative response, I said that you will get a worse negative response.

[Neon Genesis]

Born again secularists!

I prefer to say dead again secularists.

[TheIrreverend]

There has been a long battle in my city about this issue. When we bought a house here  5 years ago, they sent home a notice asking if I wanted my kid to get a bible to take home.


I was outraged. I contacted the school about and was told Canada has no separation of church and state, class  time wasn't being allocated, the distribution was  voluntary and the kids weren't required to take home the bible.


I quickly learned the teachers and administration were apathetic on the issue, and the only zealots were the ones who volunteered to give out the bibles.


I was contacted by the local paper. The reporter seemed to get it, but when her article was published there was just one vanilla line by me about not liking the idea (no reasons) quickly followed by the school board saying I was persecuting Christians.


The paper did publish an editorial of mine however, and that sparked a debate within the paper for the last 4 years. Finally, after a Muslim group approached the school board with Korans the district has decided NOT to distribute bibles any more.


Very happy with the outcome, but Christians are a scary lot. Any time someone attacks the new Atheists as constructing arguments against straw man theists I just think of how Christians react to stuff like this and roll my eyes. Christianity, for the the most part is an semi-organized hate group. They organize around the things they hate the most.

This is a very specific, Canadian-only question, but what do you think about the SHRC v Whatcott case?  The judgment should be out shortly, but the intersection between freedom of speech and freedom of religion make it extraordinarily fascinating.  I watched the oral arguments in the case and (as you would expect), the evangelicals intervened along with Focus on the Family.  It is a fascinating situation.  Frankly, like most court watchers, I could easily see them going either way (although McLachlin and Abella's vote, after their ruling in Taylor, are almost certainly to be for Whatcott).  I'm curious what other people think.

[goodthink]

I used to support the hate crimes/hate speech laws here. But after the cartoon fiasco and Islamic groups suing Macleans magazine because macleans wouldn't give into their every whim and demand, I have changed to the American idea of free speech in absolute terms.


I don't think Human Rights courts should exist. Our courts could and should be used if and when a case has merit under our regular laws.


In terms of the case you cited, unless there are more details then listed, I would have to side with the Christian. I really don't like what Christians have to say in general. But at the same time I find curbing what people can  say to be far more repugnant then the occasional loon handing out flyers.


Where I would depart is in prosecuting Christians who threaten real or imagined (especially this type) of violence. I don't think Christians should get a pass on threatening torture or mass murder because sane people know *wink, wink* the bible isn't true and the words coming out don't make sense.


In this case there is a law on the books they are trespassing on, one that a court could easily decide guilt or innocence on, using real courts, with real lawyers, through a transparent process.


Rights courts really give me the chills.

[AxeGrrl]

I used to support the hate crimes/hate speech laws here. But after the cartoon fiasco and Islamic groups suing Macleans magazine because macleans wouldn't give into their every whim and demand, I have changed to the American idea of free speech in absolute terms.

I'm kind of the opposite ~ I used to be vehemently against our hate crime/speech laws, but now I generally support them (that guy in Nova Scotia who was successfully convicted of a hate crime for burning a cross on someone's lawn? I totally support that being criminalized as a 'hate crime').......

BUT, I say all this given that the case you mentioned above (and every other similar case) has lost in court, as it should have.

I guess it will take an egregious/bogus case that wins to turn me around.

[AxeGrrl]

I contacted the school about and was told Canada has no separation of church and state, class  time wasn't being allocated, the distribution was  voluntary and the kids weren't required to take home the bible.

Kudos.  If I were a parent and my kid came home with such a permission slip, I would call the school and ask them why the Gideons are targeting children ~ why go 'through' kids and require permission from parents instead of going directly TO the parents?   (rhetorical question, needless to say)

I really despise that tactic.  'Get to the kids first'.  Soooo disingenuous.