Topic: Cracked, 5 ways men are taught to hate women

[Caffiene]

Sure... but that just means it is an excepted form of diversity.

Saying that it is better for diversity if you swap the jewish characters for black characters seems to be the wrong direction. Its not better to swap what is an acceptable form of diversity for something that you want to become acceptable - you need to find a way to have both, not give one up (or, worse, imply that Jewish and european now count as "theyre all the same") for the sake of the other.

[Johnny Slick]

Um, most Jews are European...

[Caffiene]

Most Jewish people in America would be American and in terms of culture and ancestry be descended from the middle eastern region...

[Johnny Slick]

By what metric? Most Europeans would be descended from Africa if you go back far enough as well. Actually, all Europeans. The Diaspora occurred in the 100s CE and Jews have been shuffling around Europe and the Middle East ever since then. Since 1500 or so Europe and then America have been the best places for them. Categorizing them as "descending from the middle eastern region" is simply not telling the story. Jews have been European for twice as long as Americans have been American.

[Caffiene]

Presumably we're talking about either their current location or their culture and genetics, since the discussion is about diversity on US television.

The current location of Jewish actors on US TV is the US, obviously. As far as Im aware the "prominent genetic features" of the Jewish people developed in the middle east before they dispersed throughout Europe, as did most of the cultural elements (particularly the Jewish faith).

[GodSlayer]

Werent Ross and Monica on Friends supposed to be Jewish?

I remember one episode to that effect.
didn't seem like they were trying to introduce Jews/diversity, though, even just to say 'see, Jews are just like us'. if they were meant to be Jews rather than just ordinary white Americans, it seems like that was meant to be as irrelevant as whatever their US hometown was (which I think had been mentioned a few times, but presumably not to show the audience anything about the town).

you'd think there'd have been more cooking and nagging jokes if Monica was supposed to be Jewish...Friends was hardly above stereotype jokes.

[Caffiene]

you'd think there'd have been more cooking and nagging jokes if Monica was supposed to be Jewish...Friends was hardly above stereotype jokes.

Im not really familiar with Jewish stereotypes, so Im not sure what would be expected with the cooking jokes, but I do seem to remember that they had Monica work as a chef for quite a few episodes...

[GodSlayer]

you'd think there'd have been more cooking and nagging jokes if Monica was supposed to be Jewish...Friends was hardly above stereotype jokes.

Im not really familiar with Jewish stereotypes, so Im not sure what would be expected with the cooking jokes, but I do seem to remember that they had Monica work as a chef for quite a few episodes...

apparently food/family/holidays are a big Jewish thing.
her cooking seemed to have more to do with the fact she was a chef. and it's not like they said 'oh, of course you're a chef, you're a Jew, that's a traditional Jewish profession' or some shit...it seemed to be more just that she's a bossy control freak.

[SVoid]

Johnny's Friends example is a good one. We realize that, say, Friends is an all white cast. This leads us to discuss the fact that it can't possibly be random, and in fact it wasn't - race is commonly present in casting calls. So then, we think, is this because the author *wanted* them to be white for dramatic purposes, or because he didn't think about it. And if he didn't think about it, *why* was it in the casting call? Why is "white" the default? Then we have now made this explicit. This link (white = neutral) that is both widely accepted and obviously wrong, since there is no reason why white would be more neutral than black, or hispanic. So now an author can say "hey, this is New York City, so it's quite likely that at least one of these characters is not white. Voila, there is more diversity, which is great for actors who are not white, and it makes viewers who think that white is default or neutral question their views. Color will stop mattering when it is everywhere, not when white is accepted as neutral.

If you mean that simply having similar conversations with friends ("hey, have you ever noticed how many shows are cast with primarily white people?") will promote awareness of prejudice and take us that much closer to equality, then I totally agree.

...but when you start value judging shows ("Friends is racist because it's all white") I think it's counterproductive, and stifles conversation.

The Cracked Article is exactly about pointing out the trend. That's what this entire thread has been about. That's what you were arguing about. So know you've changed your mind and think it's okay? Great! Debate over. We should continue to criticize trends in culture. Thanks.

[EhJayArr]

The current discussion is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. Somebody thinks a black character on a show isn't black enough. Now they're discussing which minorities are minority enough to count as minority.

Instead of being lessened prejudice is being furthered. This is what happens when you argue assumptions (a show displays prejudice based on the number of ____-looking people on it) and generalities (however true they may be), and it's one of the many reasons why I don't like it.

The Cracked Article is exactly about pointing out the trend. That's what this entire thread has been about. That's what you were arguing about. So know you've changed your mind and think it's okay? Great! Debate over. We should continue to criticize trends in culture. Thanks.

...if you'd been reading my posts, you'd know that I've mostly been discussing individuals' opinions within this thread, not the cracked article. Of course, meg somehow thinks I'm arguing for "neutrality," so maybe I've just done a god-awful job of expressing my thoughts.

[Johnny Slick]

Which character were we discussing isn't "black" enough again? As to the who counts as a minority thing, sure. All the Friends were minorities. Chandler is a German-American! Do you know how badly the Dutch were treated during the Revolutionary War period!? HOORAY HOLLYWOOD HAS REACHED NIRVANA WE NEVER NEED TO DISCUSS THIS AGAIN

[EhJayArr]

The conversation is divisive. It's antithetical to reducing prejudice.

[Johnny Slick]

Your face is divisive!

[Shadow Of A Doubt]

I still find it weird when people talk about "the Jews" as a race, I never heard it (or realised I was hearing it) until a couple of years ago. It was always just a(nother) religion to me growing up so it sounds as barmy as saying "the Catholic race" to me, although I realise it's not a new thing.

[EhJayArr]

Your face is divisive!

So say we all!