Author Topic: Cracked, 5 ways men are taught to hate women  (Read 8108 times)

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Offline Jeremy's Sea

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Re: Cracked, 5 ways men are taught to hate women
« Reply #270 on: May 01, 2012, 05:14:50 PM »
Johnny, specifically rules that bring out the white guilt.

Offline GodSlayer

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Re: Cracked, 5 ways men are taught to hate women
« Reply #271 on: May 01, 2012, 07:29:03 PM »
I do have to agree that for all of Hollywood's left wing politics, they really do seem to hate to cast non-whites for anything.

maybe they're 'socially liberal; fiscally conservative'... being business people, money comes first.
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Offline EhJayArr

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Re: Cracked, 5 ways men are taught to hate women
« Reply #272 on: May 01, 2012, 08:12:17 PM »
So, how do you go about deciding the primary influences of a show's diversity, or lack there of?

Is Game of Thrones mostly white because it draws so heavily from Medieval Europe, or because of racism?

Does The League's all-white (and mostly male) main character list exemplify white-male-centric culture, or were they chosen simply based on their personalities and abilities jibing with the writing?

Why did J.K. Rowling write a white male as the lead in Harry Potter--because she was influenced by male-dominated culture, because she thought people wouldn't be as interested in the same story with a female lead, or because that's simply how she imagined the character?

The futility of asking these questions is obvious as soon as you leave the realm of generalizations and enter the world of specific, real-life examples. Any of my hypothesized reasons could be true, or none of them. For most of these type questions, a mixture of reasons is probably more accurate, with some being stronger influences than others. The exercise is ridiculous.
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Offline GodSlayer

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Re: Cracked, 5 ways men are taught to hate women
« Reply #273 on: May 01, 2012, 08:30:22 PM »
So, how do you go about deciding the primary influences of a show's diversity, or lack there of?

Is Game of Thrones mostly white because it draws so heavily from Medieval Europe, or because of racism?

isn't the question more why these shows get picked up, while conceivable shows that are conceivably mostly african or indian or whatever don't? whether or not someone writes Indian or Anglo characters because they're racist or the story calls for it, isn't what matters here which projects get the backing of a network to be produced?

oh, that reminds me. how about the local bias ... you take The Office, and do an American remake...if the English were green or blue, someone would claim it was because of racism that the show was ripped off instead of just screened as-is, rather than because of some cultural or financial reason other than race. ...so, even if someone proposed a North African version of Game of Thrones, and they decided instead to write it white, that wouldn't necessarily mean racism.
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Offline EhJayArr

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Re: Cracked, 5 ways men are taught to hate women
« Reply #274 on: May 01, 2012, 08:33:18 PM »
isn't the question more why these shows get picked up, while conceivable shows that are conceivably mostly african or indian or whatever don't? whether or not someone writes Indian or Anglo characters because they're racist or the story calls for it, isn't what matters here which projects get the backing of a network to be produced?

Sure, and that's a whole level on TOP of what I was already talking about with no clear answers.
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Offline Neon Genesis

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Re: Cracked, 5 ways men are taught to hate women
« Reply #275 on: May 02, 2012, 12:06:41 AM »
I think the key idea here is that you don't want to exclude minority characters from fictional entertainment but you also have to allow these minority characters to develop in a way that feels natural and isn't there solely for the sake of being the token minority.  Having a token minority solely for the sake of political correctness rather than for the sake of the storyline can be almost as annoying as not including any minorities at all.  I keep thinking here of the American version of Being Human where the Sci-Fi Channel gave the werewolf character a lesbian sister for no apparent reason other than to have a token lesbian on the show.  Yet all throughout the first season you almost never see the lesbian sister do anything remotely lesbianish and her girlfriend barely says or does anything when she appears and the only way you would know she's a lesbian is because she keeps saying "I'm a lesbian!" practically every scene she's in.  While the gesture is nice, it's just kind of annoying she serves no purpose other than to be a token.

Offline GodSlayer

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Re: Cracked, 5 ways men are taught to hate women
« Reply #276 on: May 02, 2012, 05:42:33 AM »
Having a token minority solely for the sake of political correctness rather than for the sake of the storyline can be almost as annoying as not including any minorities at all.

I dunno, I like Community. (they don't have any non-token cast members, do they?)
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Offline DRmeg378

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Re: Cracked, 5 ways men are taught to hate women
« Reply #277 on: May 02, 2012, 07:42:20 AM »
Community is a comedy, but it does have all sorts of characters. I don't think they are tokens - they are exaggerations, but most sitcom characters are (if we go back to friends, Monica was the neurotic-OCD character, a stereotype that has nothing to do with race and could have been any color).
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Offline GodSlayer

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Re: Cracked, 5 ways men are taught to hate women
« Reply #278 on: May 02, 2012, 09:48:56 AM »
Community is a comedy, but it does have all sorts of characters. I don't think they are tokens - they are exaggerations, but most sitcom characters are (if we go back to friends, Monica was the neurotic-OCD character, a stereotype that has nothing to do with race and could have been any color).

black christian woman, on the other hand, wouldn't work quite as well as white christian man, no he wouldn't! and compassionate atheist white girl definitely couldn't be played by a strong black woman. ...that's not the sort of thing a black woman is supposed to get all up in yo face about.
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Offline DRmeg378

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Re: Cracked, 5 ways men are taught to hate women
« Reply #279 on: May 02, 2012, 11:12:57 AM »
These are not token characters. They are main characters, that are stereotypes. My point is that most comedy characters are, which is why I find Friends overall more unnecessarily white than Community. To take one of the most diverse shows on TV right now (I think maybe Grey's anatomy is more diverse, not sure what else) and somehow say it is equivalent to the absence of non white characters on TV as a whole seems absurd on its face.

I think the key idea here is that you don't want to exclude minority characters from fictional entertainment but you also have to allow these minority characters to develop in a way that feels natural and isn't there solely for the sake of being the token minority.  Having a token minority solely for the sake of political correctness rather than for the sake of the storyline can be almost as annoying as not including any minorities at all.  I keep thinking here of the American version of Being Human where the Sci-Fi Channel gave the werewolf character a lesbian sister for no apparent reason other than to have a token lesbian on the show.  Yet all throughout the first season you almost never see the lesbian sister do anything remotely lesbianish and her girlfriend barely says or does anything when she appears and the only way you would know she's a lesbian is because she keeps saying "I'm a lesbian!" practically every scene she's in.  While the gesture is nice, it's just kind of annoying she serves no purpose other than to be a token.

While I sympathize with that, I would like to play devil's advocate a little. If they have a character that rarely appears, but then shows up with her girlfriend and nothing is made of the fact, then how is that different from having a background character just show up in the background with her boyfriend? If, on the other hand, they are trying to get "cred" by having a lesbian character who is nothing but background noise, then I agree. In other words, if they are trying to both make her sexual orientation a plot point and ignore her, then I see why that is unappealing as a viewer. But if she's just in the background, then she can be gay or straight, it's the same.

So, how do you go about deciding the primary influences of a show's diversity, or lack there of?

Is Game of Thrones mostly white because it draws so heavily from Medieval Europe, or because of racism?

Does The League's all-white (and mostly male) main character list exemplify white-male-centric culture, or were they chosen simply based on their personalities and abilities jibing with the writing?

Why did J.K. Rowling write a white male as the lead in Harry Potter--because she was influenced by male-dominated culture, because she thought people wouldn't be as interested in the same story with a female lead, or because that's simply how she imagined the character?

The futility of asking these questions is obvious as soon as you leave the realm of generalizations and enter the world of specific, real-life examples. Any of my hypothesized reasons could be true, or none of them. For most of these type questions, a mixture of reasons is probably more accurate, with some being stronger influences than others. The exercise is ridiculous.

This is applicable to any pattern in any context. So do you advocate for never talking about any patterns? Yes, Game of Thrones is about white people. The question is why can Game of Thrones be a success, but a similar story about, say, the Malian empire would be considered for black audiences only. And whether encouraging writers to write characters that are neutral in every way and don't *need* to be of a certain ethnicity as non white is trampling on their creative rights. Look at Friends, which is a great example. Why did that group *need* to be all white? It was wholly unnecessary. But casting calls are made for characters that are similarly neutral all the time, and they specify that actors should be white. There must be awesome acting talent that is totally untapped right now, because who would want to act and grow up to be the token Asian in a play? More importantly, not discussing things is the best way of not changing things. Race is not going to go away by pretending it's not there. No problem in the history of mankind has.
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Offline EhJayArr

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Re: Cracked, 5 ways men are taught to hate women
« Reply #280 on: May 02, 2012, 11:19:12 AM »
Meg, you're talking about the attitude of, "we need more ___-looking people on this show," and that's the attitude that I think deepens and prolongs prejudicial divisions. I'm not saying that prejudice doesn't influence Hollywood--it absolutely does! I'm saying we should fight the prejudice and not worry about trying to control every possible effect, especially when prejudice can only be assumed as the primary cause for the vast majority of specific instances. You're left discussion generalizations, which I don't think are all that useful.


Also: Archer is probably the most genuinely diverse show on TV right now.
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Offline DRmeg378

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Re: Cracked, 5 ways men are taught to hate women
« Reply #281 on: May 02, 2012, 11:41:42 AM »
Yeah, that's exactly where we differ. I think that attitude does not deepen or prolong prejudicial divisions. I think that pretending like those divisions do not exist is what allows them to perpetuate themselves. Like I've said in the past, it is a small-c conservative position that I am afraid is probably affected by the fact that you are in the default group, while my position is probably affected by the fact that I very much am not.
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Online Johnny Slick

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Re: Cracked, 5 ways men are taught to hate women
« Reply #282 on: May 02, 2012, 11:45:57 AM »
(ETA: responding to Feb here)

No, sorry, it's absolutely apt to point out individual instances of institutionalized racism and/or sexism and especially make fun of it because that's the best way to get people to actually think about this kind of thing. It's funny because everyone else has been bringing up specific examples and yet you're accusing folks of generalizing.

Commercials FWIW are even worse, particularly WRT sexism. I mentioned those beer commercials with the emasculated men earlier but if you are a man and otherwise value the breaking of gender stereotypes whatever you do do NOT watch daytime television. Like 90% of the commercials on there are about Stupid Husband Making Mistakes Which Are Fixed By Pretty Housewife. Obviously they know what demographic they're selling to, but maaaaaaaan is that crap bad. "Oh honey! I accidentally spilled grape juice all over the carpet again!!!!" "Oh, that's okay, honey, you go to your 'job' and make 'money' to pay for this 'house.' I'll be your glorified maid and I'll do it with a smile thanks to Swiffer Quicker Picker Upper(TM)!" "Ha ha ha! I'm having an affair."
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Offline EhJayArr

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Re: Cracked, 5 ways men are taught to hate women
« Reply #283 on: May 02, 2012, 12:07:04 PM »
I think that pretending like those divisions do not exist is what allows them to perpetuate themselves.

Which divisions, exactly--dangly bits and skin tint?
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Offline EhJayArr

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Re: Cracked, 5 ways men are taught to hate women
« Reply #284 on: May 02, 2012, 12:11:10 PM »
(ETA: responding to Feb here)

No, sorry, it's absolutely apt to point out individual instances of institutionalized racism and/or sexism and especially make fun of it because that's the best way to get people to actually think about this kind of thing. It's funny because everyone else has been bringing up specific examples and yet you're accusing folks of generalizing.

Commercials FWIW are even worse, particularly WRT sexism. I mentioned those beer commercials with the emasculated men earlier but if you are a man and otherwise value the breaking of gender stereotypes whatever you do do NOT watch daytime television. Like 90% of the commercials on there are about Stupid Husband Making Mistakes Which Are Fixed By Pretty Housewife. Obviously they know what demographic they're selling to, but maaaaaaaan is that crap bad. "Oh honey! I accidentally spilled grape juice all over the carpet again!!!!" "Oh, that's okay, honey, you go to your 'job' and make 'money' to pay for this 'house.' I'll be your glorified maid and I'll do it with a smile thanks to Swiffer Quicker Picker Upper(TM)!" "Ha ha ha! I'm having an affair."

Yeah, like I have been saying, I think sexism (especially) is rampant in the media, and when bigotry rears its head, it's definitely something to mock and point out.

But pointing out the idiocy of those "it's for men" Dr. Pepper commercials is different than saying that a show is "too white."
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