Author Topic: theism and skepticism compatible?  (Read 1801 times)

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Online seaotter

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Re: theism and skepticism compatible?
« Reply #15 on: Apr 21, 2012, 09:53:37 AM »
The question is about theism and skepticism, NOT about religion and skepticism: an important difference.
How can one be a theist and not religious?

Can't you believe there is a god but none of the religions describe it?
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Offline Plastique

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Re: theism and skepticism compatible?
« Reply #16 on: Apr 21, 2012, 10:03:42 AM »
The question is about theism and skepticism, NOT about religion and skepticism: an important difference.
How can one be a theist and not religious?


Can't you believe there is a god but none of the religions describe it?
Sure, but I'm going off the premise that all you need to be religious is to believe in a god. Pretty sure that's one definition of religion.

* Quick look up... *

Here:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/religion?s=t

1.    belief in, worship of, or obedience to a supernatural power or powers considered to be divine or to have control of human destiny.

Online seaotter

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Re: theism and skepticism compatible?
« Reply #17 on: Apr 21, 2012, 10:20:11 AM »
Well now we are just into definitions. Boring. Think religious vs spiritual whatever the fuck that is. Ok you are religious if you beleive in god even if that religion contains just you.
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Offline Plastique

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Re: theism and skepticism compatible?
« Reply #18 on: Apr 21, 2012, 10:29:54 AM »
Well now we are just into definitions. Boring. Think religious vs spiritual whatever the fuck that is. Ok you are religious if you beleive in god even if that religion contains just you.
Hey, the guy said there was a difference, I wanted to know what he meant.

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Re: theism and skepticism compatible?
« Reply #19 on: Apr 21, 2012, 10:38:53 AM »
Well, its pretty common usage to refer to religious as someone doing the rituals and following the dogma of an organized religion.
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Offline mjtolsma

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Re: theism and skepticism compatible?
« Reply #20 on: Apr 21, 2012, 11:15:26 AM »
Exactly. Religion implies an organisation with dogma's, rituals etc.
I'm no expert on the subject, but can you state that Buddhism (no god) is a religion?

And you can be a theist without being religious (going to church, praying etc). I could argue that the majority in my country falls under this definition.

Anyway, that was not the point of my post.

Online Johnny Slick

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Re: theism and skepticism compatible?
« Reply #21 on: Apr 21, 2012, 11:24:02 AM »
Yeah, I think it's at least possible to be a nominal Christian/Jew/whatever and be kind of agnostic about the DOYC itself. I mean, if there are actual (closet) atheists employed as ministers, certainly it's possible for people to be regular churchmembers for reasons of community or a want to serve the greater good*. Likewise, I think it's possible to be a believer in some sort of higher power but want nothing to do with the trappings of religion itself. I'm not entirely sure either approach is anathema to skepticism.

And here's the bottom line: there will be exceptions to every rule. If you impose a hard and fast "religion != skepticism" rule, you are guilty of lazy thinking and aren't behaving skeptically. Every claim is different and ought to be discussed on its own merits. If, after hearing the merits of the claim - whether that claim is about a new Bigfoot or about whether or not someone's individual religion/theism is compatible with the worldview of skepticism - it sounds like 20 others that you've already debunked, fine, debunk away. To go into a claim assuming said claim is debunked because it violates a pre-existing rule... well, that's the sort of attitude that gives skeptics a bad name.

I get that people don't want to cloud what it is that skepticism means. I certainly don't want skepticism to mean "apply scientific rigor to everything except Jesus". At the same time, the movement will not grow as long as there is not tolerance for diversity of opinion. That doesn't mean you have to agree with the other person in question. It doesn't even necessarily mean you have to go out of your way to accommodate someone who insists on injecting their non-skeptical belief system into everything. Such a person will probably not find skepticism to be satisfying and will likely leave of their own accord. The flip side is, if you've found common ground with a fellow skeptic, you don't need to castigate them for their religion/belief in UFOs/whatever at the same time.

I want to get back to this point because I think it is really, really important: the most important part of becoming a skeptic is adopting the mindset and the thought processes of a skeptic. It's not believing or not believing in God. It's not understanding the paucity of evidence for UFOs or Bigfoot, or even understanding the crazy logistics involved in a conspiracy large enough to make a faked lunar landing or 9/11 attack plausible. I firmly believe that once a person starts to think skeptically, they'll agree with me about all of those other things as well once they've examined them. However, examination of that type is a personal process and by throwing one field that someone hasn't examined critically yet into their face, you're as likely to drive them away from the skeptical mindset as you are to make them reconsider their position. Of course, *you* will feel better about yourself for having exposed hypocrisy, which is, I suspect, the true reason why people do this sort of thing, but that won't in the end make the world any better, really.

*Not saying that you need to be a member of a church to do this or even if it's the best use of one's time. However, we are only open to options we've experienced.
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Offline Plastique

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Re: theism and skepticism compatible?
« Reply #22 on: Apr 21, 2012, 11:53:22 AM »
I want to get back to this point because I think it is really, really important: the most important part of becoming a skeptic is adopting the mindset and the thought processes of a skeptic. It's not believing or not believing in God.
True, but perhaps if someone earnestly and wholeheartedly believes in God, it might indicate a potential breakdown in their ability to be skeptical about other things, too.

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Re: theism and skepticism compatible?
« Reply #23 on: Apr 21, 2012, 12:10:48 PM »
Maybe is a cool word.
"There is no use trying," said Alice; "one can't believe impossible things." Lewis Carroll

Offline mjtolsma

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Re: theism and skepticism compatible?
« Reply #24 on: Apr 21, 2012, 12:23:00 PM »
True, but perhaps if someone earnestly and wholeheartedly believes in God, it might indicate a potential breakdown in their ability to be skeptical about other things, too.

At that time in his life, yes. But you never know how his life will evolve (every pun intended).

Offline Plastique

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Re: theism and skepticism compatible?
« Reply #25 on: Apr 21, 2012, 12:29:02 PM »
True, but perhaps if someone earnestly and wholeheartedly believes in God, it might indicate a potential breakdown in their ability to be skeptical about other things, too.

At that time in his life, yes. But you never know how his life will evolve (every pun intended).
Absolutely. I should have specified I meant someone who had thought about it and still reached the same theistic conclusion.

Offline mjtolsma

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Re: theism and skepticism compatible?
« Reply #26 on: Apr 21, 2012, 12:30:16 PM »
Agreed  ;)

Offline JD Holwick

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Re: theism and skepticism compatible?
« Reply #27 on: Apr 21, 2012, 01:11:14 PM »
...the most important part of becoming a skeptic is adopting the mindset and the thought processes of a skeptic. It's not believing or not believing in God.

i do understand what you are getting at and i do generally agree with you but imagine the above quote, which i took from your response, with "leprechauns" replacing "god."  there has never been any compelling evidence that leprechauns exist and anyone who called himself a skeptic but believed firmly in leprechauns would warrant a raised eyebrow.  frankly i see no substantial difference.  a skeptic who has a belief in a god for which there has never been any real evidence is not consistent.  ---  jdh
"what can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence." ~ christopher hitchens

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Re: theism and skepticism compatible?
« Reply #28 on: Apr 21, 2012, 01:36:52 PM »
Except that it's not the same in that I for one don't know of any large scale Celtic Mythology Preservation Societies which have a grand sense of community that one need renounce in order to profess their disbelief in leprechauns. If you're aware of such groups, okay I guess. Personally, I still think that a welcoming attitude towards someone who believed in leprechauns but who was willing to begin applying ideals such as "extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof" is better than "come back to us when you believe in the things that we want you to believe", so yeah, I'd still be okay with the leprechaun believer, knowing full well that continued exposure to skepticism would probably eventually lead them to rethinking their leprechaun stance.
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Online seaotter

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Re: theism and skepticism compatible?
« Reply #29 on: Apr 21, 2012, 01:48:19 PM »
Besides I bet leprechaun believers are as much fun to talk to as space elves!
"There is no use trying," said Alice; "one can't believe impossible things." Lewis Carroll