Topic: flu vaccines and side effects

[GodSlayer]

so, there are a loooooooot of anecdotes saying that people feel so crook they're bed-ridden for days after a flu vaccine* (even from very pro-vaccine people).

*the shot, not the spray.

http://www.3news.co.nz/Are-flu-jabs-beneficial/tabid/367/articleID/250944/Default.aspx
(8minute long video)

the GP they picked for this story could not possibly have been any more flippant (minute 4:50+)

what's the deal?

[Belgarath]

I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of those anecdotes begin with:

'I wasn't feeling well, so I decided to go get a flu shot.  Suddenly I felt worse'

No dummy, that's the flu or a cold.  You had it before the shot.

[GodSlayer]

I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of those anecdotes begin with:

'I wasn't feeling well, so I decided to go get a flu shot.  Suddenly I felt worse'

No dummy, that's the flu or a cold.  You had it before the shot.

didn't see that in any of the anecdotes. but did see people suggesting it might be a cold, not a flu.
of course, it doesn't have to be 'the flu', does it? like if you take chemo and feel shit because of the chemo not the cancer, could people feel worse because something is exciting their immune system, though they don't actually have a cold or flu virus to blame for it?

[Bill K]

 Like the second poster of this thread posted, this is clearly the 'me too' fallacy.

[GodSlayer]

Like the second poster of this thread posted, this is clearly the 'me too' fallacy.

what's that?

[Audiophile]

From what I've been told it is fairly common to get a little reaction from vaccines. I clearly remember my son getting a slight fever for one or two days after getting one of those triple vaccins. I remember that we where not alarmed at all, as the doctor giving him the shot told me that such a reaction was common.

I guess that the strain on the immune system triggers this reaction, but I'm not that sure.

[Plastique]

Never had an adverse reaction from the flu vaccine, but some more exotic ones have made me feel pretty exhausted for quite a few days. Nothing more than tiredness, though.

[Movius]

A few years back. I got a nasty, but unrelated, sinus infection straight after a flu-shot that I ignored for days thinking it was just temporary vaccine side-effects. Needed a full course of anti-biotics and a week off work to get myself right again.

[GodSlayer]

A few years back. I got a nasty, but unrelated, sinus infection straight after a flu-shot that I ignored for days thinking it was just temporary vaccine side-effects. Needed a full course of anti-biotics and a week off work to get myself right again.

not related to the thread, just curious... would you've been better able to fight that infection if not for the poor timing of the vaccine? (the way hospital is a bad place for sick people)

[Movius]

A few years back. I got a nasty, but unrelated, sinus infection straight after a flu-shot that I ignored for days thinking it was just temporary vaccine side-effects. Needed a full course of anti-biotics and a week off work to get myself right again.

not related to the thread, just curious... would you've been better able to fight that infection if not for the poor timing of the vaccine? (the way hospital is a bad place for sick people)

I would have gone to the doctor sooner if I hadn't self-diagnosed it. Had the shot on a Thursday, was feeling down that evening but attributed it to my futsal game that day. Felt under the weather friday but went to work. Got really sick on the weekend and couldn't see a GP until the Monday and it actually took two trips to get the anti-biotics on the Wednesday.

[superdave]

The idea of vaccines is to a trigger an immune response.  A mild fever for a day or too after the shot is normal and not particularly dangerous. 

[GodSlayer]

The idea of vaccines is to a trigger an immune response.  A mild fever for a day or too after the shot is normal and not particularly dangerous. 

so
a. is 'being bed-ridden'/so sick as to miss days of work implausible?
b. what do you make of the doctor in the video clip? is his flippancy just consonant with those trivial effects you note?

[superdave]

The idea of vaccines is to a trigger an immune response.  A mild fever for a day or too after the shot is normal and not particularly dangerous. 

so
a. is 'being bed-ridden'/so sick as to miss days of work implausible?
b. what do you make of the doctor in the video clip? is his flippancy just consonant with those trivial effects you note?

a) is implausible.  You cannot get infected from the vaccine, but the doctor in the video is glosses over potential side effects.
This is from the CDC

The flu shot: The viruses in the flu shot are killed (inactivated), so you cannot get the flu from a flu shot. Some minor side effects that could occur are:

    Soreness, redness, or swelling where the shot was given
    Fever (low grade)
    Aches

If these problems occur, they begin soon after the shot and usually last 1 to 2 days. Almost all people who receive influenza vaccine have no serious problems from it. However, on rare occasions, flu vaccination can cause serious problems, such as severe allergic reactions. As of July 1, 2005, people who think that they have been injured by the flu shot can file a claim for compensation from the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program (VICP)External Web Site Icon.

I wouldn't say it's impossible to feel sick enough to miss work, but pretty unlikely, and still better than having the flu.

[Tatyana]

The idea of vaccines is to a trigger an immune response.  A mild fever for a day or too after the shot is normal and not particularly dangerous.

Exactly, and the more foreign the antigens, the more the immune system will respond in most people.

For example, what is thought to have killed so many people in the Spanish flu of 1918 was that it was so novel, the resulting cytokine storm had people drowning in their own lung secretions.

This is a well-known innate immune response, 'secretion' or 'fluror', is that the immune system tries to 'wall off' the infected area via secretion, which is why infected or injured areas are often swollen.

If you encounter a seriously foreign antigen in your lungs, well........

If it wasn't for ITU beds now, we would probably still have a lot more deaths of this nature.

Anyway, if you feel really crap from the tiny amount of antigen that is given to you in the flu vaccine, it could mean that the strong immune response (as it is the immune system response that generally makes you feel really rubbish, not the virus) indicates that the virus was very foreign to you and you are lucky to encounter a tame version rather than the full fledged beastie.

Tell that to all the people who say that 'I felt really bad after the jab', that they are probably likely candidates for death in the coming global pandemic if they can't even handle the micro litres of flu epitopes. Of course, unless they are the lucky ones to go down first and get the ITU beds. 

Anecdotally, I used to feel really sick when I first started getting flu jabs, super sore arm as well. Now that I have had so many flu jabs, I have to push on the injection site to even notice that I have even had a jab.

[GodSlayer]

The idea of vaccines is to a trigger an immune response.  A mild fever for a day or too after the shot is normal and not particularly dangerous. 

so
a. is 'being bed-ridden'/so sick as to miss days of work implausible?
b. what do you make of the doctor in the video clip? is his flippancy just consonant with those trivial effects you note?

a) is implausible.  You cannot get infected from the vaccine, but the doctor in the video is glosses over potential side effects.
This is from the CDC

The flu shot: The viruses in the flu shot are killed (inactivated), so you cannot get the flu from a flu shot. Some minor side effects that could occur are:

    Soreness, redness, or swelling where the shot was given
    Fever (low grade)
    Aches

If these problems occur, they begin soon after the shot and usually last 1 to 2 days. Almost all people who receive influenza vaccine have no serious problems from it. However, on rare occasions, flu vaccination can cause serious problems, such as severe allergic reactions. As of July 1, 2005, people who think that they have been injured by the flu shot can file a claim for compensation from the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program (VICP)External Web Site Icon.

I wouldn't say it's impossible to feel sick enough to miss work, but pretty unlikely, and still better than having the flu.

cool.
the people who self-select to give anecdotes make it sound like the norm rather than the exception. ...most, though, try it once and never take it again, so they don't know if it would be common or not (even just 'common for the uncommon person' --reminds me of insect bites -- I had a coworker who had a bad immune response to a large number of bites, and I know someone who seems particularly susceptible to spider venom. ...but even if the anecdote isn't a one-off event, but something reliably occurring for them, it still doesn't mean most people should expect that sort of reaction). But this makes me wonder why there isn't any information on such things as vulnerable populations/the possibility of extreme reactions and being advised to avoid what others don't need to avoid.