Topic: Are MRA really a hate group?

[Calinthalus]

I don't think there can be any real reforms to how men are treated in custody cases.  I think it's a social issue.  A certain bias in the judiciary that is part of the social makeup of where you are.  Men are not seen as caregivers.

Hell, my daughter has never had friends sleep over at our house if my wife was working the night shift that night.  That's just self-protection for men these days.  I don't think there's anything that can be done from a legal sense.  It's a cultural problem.

So, I'm not advocating a change in law.  I'm just saying that there are many instances where cultural ideas of masculinity/femininity hurt both "men" and "women"...not to mention those that fall inbetween the cultural normal lines.  If you complain about your treatment as a man you hear "Oh Boo Hoo, cry me a river".  The other men will call you names (Pussy, Faggot etc.etc); they'll take away or man card, or drop a giant can of beer on your head.  The women will berate you for whining about your treatment while they see women as having it worse.

I'm not implying that men have it worse than women.  I'm saying that it's accepted that women have a right to complain when they are treated unfairly based on their sex.  Men don't have that luxury in much of our culture.

[SVoid]

And the indications are that these are changing. Eg., men get at least joint custody more often. I think it's interesting that MRA don't post the change over time of men being awarded custody. It depends on location, sadly.

[Calinthalus]

Location, I'm sure, plays a large role in it.

I graduated High School in Mississippi.  I was called a faggot for reading a book not assigned to me.  How dare a human with a penis enjoy literature that wasn't forced on them by the evil teaching establishment.  He must not be much of a man.

Of course, since I didn't hunt and rarely fished, my man card had been revoked many years before.  Seriously, if you don't drive a truck with nuts hanging off the back...you might as well carry a purse.

[Neon Genesis]

This is is something that really eats at me. I am honestly afraid to be anywhere near a child without my wife present because of the way parents act. Every time I go to the grocery store I have started avoiding any line with a child in the shopping cart because I am sick of getting that look parents give me for standing within 5 feet of their child. When my wife is there she can go right up to the kid and play with it and the parents don't even blink.

I'll see your personal anedote and raise you another.  I talk to women with their children about how adorable they are in grocery stores all the time and I've never gotten a strange look at all and I don't spend every second going shopping worrying I might be in the same aisle of a child.  On the other hand, men always seem to give my mother a rude look whenever she tries to talk them at the store.

[DRmeg378]

So is the difference you talk to the parents, and I can talk to the kid directly?

[341gerbig]

  That's just self-protection for men these days.  I don't think there's anything that can be done from a legal sense.  It's a cultural problem.

This is also my experience, In the youth program  i work with (Royal Canadian Air Cadets), It is an unwritten rule(s) amongst most of the men in the organization, Never talk to a cadet alone, never talk to a cadet behind closed doors, never enter a female cadets living quarters, never adjust a female cadets uniform, never talk to a female cadet without raising your voice so others can hear what you are saying,  never be in a building complex alone in general/never be the last person to leave(just in case a cadet is in another part of it and knows you are there), etc

Its called in my line of work "covering your ass", and the male officers kind of just pass the word onto younger/newer male members of the program,  the female officers never have to worry about such a thing, and when word got out that male officers had this unwritten policy, it was seen as over-the-top and sexist.

Male officers across Canada in the program have been wrongly accused of sexual assault by Cadets, mostly young, female cadets looking for attention. It happens at least a 3-4 times a year across Canada. Female officers have never faced the same fear of being wrongly accused, so they simply dont worry about it.

[SVoid]

Male officers across Canada in the program have been wrongly accused of sexual assault by Cadets, mostly young, female cadets looking for attention. It happens at least a 3-4 times a year across Canada. Female officers have never faced the same fear of being wrongly accused, so they simply dont worry about it.

Hold on here, I want a little perspective. Because your anecdote about how you feel may or may not lead to a proper understanding of the situation. It's possible your reasoning is dead on. But it might also be a little fallacious, and so I'd like some more information.

You are claiming that 3-4 times a year male officers are wrongly accused of sexual assault [citation needed]. So how often are they correctly accused of sexual assault? Once every fear years? 10 times a year? 100 times a year? How many officers are there in the air cadets? 10? 100? 1000? 10 000? Because these numbers make a big difference. Especially the ratio of false to real accusations, and how you come to that determination.

I mean, unless there is a way you know that 3-4 are false out of (3? 4? 10? 100 accusations?) it seems like there is some fallacious thinking (availability bias, et cetera). This doesn't mean you are wrong, even if I'm right in pointing out it seems fallacious. But I might be wrong and you might have more solid numbers that you haven't posted yet.

(Also, it just occurred to me that sometimes people don't think what they are doing is sexual harassment. For example, some guys will touch women. A lot. I've been called very touchy by women. But I also go out of my way to not touch women who I don't think I know will react will. Because some people find it uncomfortable and they shouldn't have to put up with unwanted touching, even if YOU think it's unobtrusive. Sometimes men don't touch at all but will noticeably comment on the looks of fellow co-workers, even directly to them. Even without touching this can be sexual harassment depending on how it's done.

In fact, like with everything else, you need to treat other people they way they want to be treated. Kinda a reverse golden rule. The Elur Nedlog, if you will.

[Anders]

  That's just self-protection for men these days.  I don't think there's anything that can be done from a legal sense.  It's a cultural problem.

Male officers across Canada in the program have been wrongly accused of sexual assault by Cadets, mostly young, female cadets looking for attention. It happens at least a 3-4 times a year across Canada. Female officers have never faced the same fear of being wrongly accused, so they simply dont worry about it.

That sounds like the kind of statement that would require a reference.

[341gerbig]

  That's just self-protection for men these days.  I don't think there's anything that can be done from a legal sense.  It's a cultural problem.

Male officers across Canada in the program have been wrongly accused of sexual assault by Cadets, mostly young, female cadets looking for attention. It happens at least a 3-4 times a year across Canada. Female officers have never faced the same fear of being wrongly accused, so they simply dont worry about it.

That sounds like the kind of statement that would require a reference.

I don't have real references,  it is simply that whenever one of these accusations comes about, the officers all have "refresher sessions" about harassment and sexual harassment laws and policies. We always hear about "male officer at such and such unit" or "male officer at such and such summer camp" accused of sexual harassment, but that is all we really here.

And the email network we use is all interconnected throughout Canada, so somebody always knows someone in the accused unit, and in the 3 years ive been in the movement, there have been about 4-5 accusations a year, and we hear that after further investigation by the police/the local Human resources officer the cadet often admits they were lying.

All anecdotal, I know, not reliable, but it is simply my experience.

Ive seen 2 authentic and charged sexual harassment/child molestation charges, and probably 10-12 false accusations. It is an epidemic.

[DRmeg378]

An "epidemic" of 12 cases? That sounds somewhat alarmist.

[341gerbig]

An "epidemic" of 12 cases? That sounds somewhat alarmist.

Not when you look at the size of the cadet movement and the number of officers involved,

4700 active officers in total, that means 1 in about 390 Officers have been accused. And of those 4700, only half of them work with kids directly, so you could reduce that number to 1 in 195,  FAR ABOVE the average number of sexual harassment cases for the general public. It is well enough to scare male officers into taking the "cover your ass" methods seriously, while female officers don't really worry about it.

[Johnny Slick]

Today by my estimates it is 9:12 in the morning and 100% of all people who live in a suburb of Seattle have not eaten breakfast yet.

[341gerbig]

Today by my estimates it is 9:12 in the morning and 100% of all people who live in a suburb of Seattle have not eaten breakfast yet.

Where did I say my situation in my organisation applied to society in general?

[Johnny Slick]

I was talking about Bellevue, lib. Where did *I* say society in general?

[341gerbig]

I was talking about Bellevue, lib. Where did *I* say society in general?

Ah, I apologise, I thought you were using you not eating breakfast and the false statistics applied to it as a metaphor  towards myself.

Disregard