Topic: Are MRA really a hate group?

[SVoid]

Men's Rights Activist and the Men's Rights Movement are not nice groups taken over by extremists. The fact is that the best coverage of men's actual rights come from feminists. Any goals that the MRAs come up with are goals of feminism which seeks equality of the sexes, in all sphere's of life, and has for a long, long time.

Men's Rights Activists are an extremist set of people. I'm sorry if they've tricked you in to think they are reasonable because 'who's against men's rights?' But I notice you quoting from Voice for Men, and I'm sorry, by they generally oppose women and specifically oppose feminists. How someone who claims they have no rights can oppose people who for the rights of men (and women) I don't know.

But I should point something out: They declared the MRA subreddit a hate group. Not all MRAs. However, all MRAs do seem to be hate groups. If you really want equality, you'd work with feminists.

[Johnny Slick]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W46iTOiFm1U&feature=relmfu


Seriously, anyone want to defend the posts she reads out from radfem?

So your support of why MRA movements aren't a bunch of radicals and why men's rights in general can't be subsumed into the larger feminist movement is... a cherry-picked radical? I'm pretty sure this killed your point.

[SVoid]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W46iTOiFm1U&feature=relmfu


Seriously, anyone want to defend the posts she reads out from radfem?

So your support of why MRA movements aren't a bunch of radicals and why men's rights in general can't be subsumed into the larger feminist movement is... a cherry-picked radical? I'm pretty sure this killed your point.

He cherry picked one video that itself cherry picked comments.

Here's my question: where are the reasonable Men's Rights Activists?

[Neon Genesis]

Since when have feminists pushed to address the social injustices affecting men? If it's one thing feminism has been consistent in, it's been deriding the possibility men aren't disposable objects. I am open to all the great endeavours feminism has undertaken on the behalf of men.

So you're one of those people who think feminism = man hater?   

[andrewclunn]

Do I have to be part of a group to have an opinion?  At the end of the day one has to weigh the benefits and costs of supporting movements like MRA or feminism.  I don't think I'd care to support either.  I certainly feel like feminism acts like a hate group against men quite frequently, I can imagine that women probably feel that way about MRA.  Could just be that the movements have an easier time attracting the bigoted hypocrites though.  This is why any movement like this needs to have some kind of agreed upon mission statement.  Make things to vague where it's not clear what you stand for other than a general feeling of persecution and you're asking to be labelled by your opposition.

Count on Andrew to add just a smidgen of qualified crazy to an otherwise reasoned post. Feminism- the idea that women are coequal with men and that certain rules that restrict their participation in society should be changed- is not a philosophy of hatred.  There were some pretty goofy radical, often lesbian feminists who adopted extremist ideas of the "all sex is rape" variety.  But that kind of counterproductive BS is not indicative of the movement as a whole. 

But, as there seems to be no such thing as an "MRA" - at least nothing very prominent- it is hard to classify their philosophy.  (One of the websites I found with those initials went out of its way to negate any inherent gender or sex-role bias.)  I blundered onto a website full of misogynistic idiots in the wake of the Rebecca elevator kerfuffle, but they seemed to be pretty harmless in their vile way.

Oh would you look at that.  I just share my thoughts and am accused of being crazy.  So surprising.

[Jeremy's Sea]

No, it's more akin to wanting social justice.

What social justice issues do men face that can't be addressed through feminist worldviews?

Since when have feminists pushed to address the social injustices affecting men? If it's one thing feminism has been consistent in, it's been deriding the possibility men aren't disposable objects. I am open to all the great endeavours feminism has undertaken on the behalf of men.

This sounds suspiciously like a double standard to me. MRAs shouldn't be judged by the crazies MRA advocates, why are you painting with such a broad brush on feminism? I have read a lot in my day, I won't deny that there are extreme versions of feminism that are anti-male, but unless you're only hanging around liberal college campuses with a bunch of 18 year olds new to the concepts I wonder how you missed the breadth of feminism that concerns itself with the betterment of both sexes' situations.

[goodthink]

Here's what I don't see:


fighting for the obligation to register for the draft
fighting for male custody rights
campaigns to stop male rape
campaigns to stop violence against males
campaigns to educate women on the their roles in DV with a clear message that violence isn't tolerable
campaigns to help boys stay in school
campaigns for men's health
campaigns for stronger sentences for false accusations of rape
the recognition men have a right to stay-at-home and parent


There is more, but why bother. If you mention the above you hate women. It's already been mentioned.

[Johnny Slick]

We haven't had a draft for either sex in 40 years... what?

[Jeremy's Sea]

There are legitimate discriminations against the male gender, and unfortunately, people don't take them seriously.

I really don't know why.

I mean im not saying that they are all ignored, even women's rights groups fight for male rights under the guise of "human rights" and its dam decent of them to do so, but a large part of the general population simply believe that males face no discrimination and that females are the only ones discriminated against.

I would be curious to see the concrete examples of extreme discrimination and the support that most people don't believe that men don't face issues.

I don't know if people think its the "patriarchy" being greedy while "already being in power", or an attempt to combat/oppose feminism(admittedly, some sects of the MRA movement are vocally against feminists, but I don't think they represent the majority). I just feel there are a lot of misconceptions and assumptions made in the process of people judging the men's rights movements.

A lot of the most extreme examples get held up as the typical example, plus the MRA's that get wacky are extremely vocal. Power structures aren't really something people actively think about and try to maintain. We all know how bloody difficult it is to get people to question reality when they've heard the same thing their entire life. It's more about dislodging bad practices than unseating greedy power mongers.

Its a giant stepping-on-glass politically correct conversation to have, and I need to learn a lot more than I do now before I can give a real and balanced judgement about this issue, and I hope this thread and the more knowledgeable people within it will help give me this incite.

All I know now is, there is gender specific discrimination in both genders, and both sides have incidences of those discriminations not being taken seriously/ignored/suppressed. And as of now I believe that discriminations against men have a bigger problem with the discriminations against them not being taken seriously/ignored/suppressed than the women's rights movement.

I can't argue with you on how you feel about issues, but I wouldn't get too hung up on the negatives about what is or is not happening, I would focus more on the positives that can create change. In other words, don't complain about how men have it so unfair and nobody realizes how unfair men have it because women act like they have all the misery in the world, but maybe try to focus on the issues at hand. How do you get better custody rights for fathers and at the same time guarantee that all fathers are taking financial and emotional responsibility for their offspring?  How do you protect young boys from the self perpetuating culture of violence that leads to the death of both men and women?  How do you open the pathway for men to be more involved in child rearing while allowing women to simultaneously rise in the power structure and become bread winners? (I would totally be a stay at home dad for the record and it's taken me a lot to resist the programming that I have to be a productive worker bee)

[Jeremy's Sea]

Here's what I don't see:


fighting for the obligation to register for the draft
fighting for male custody rights
campaigns to stop male rape
campaigns to stop violence against males
campaigns to educate women on the their roles in DV with a clear message that violence isn't tolerable
campaigns to help boys stay in school
campaigns for men's health
campaigns for stronger sentences for false accusations of rape
the recognition men have a right to stay-at-home and parent


There is more, but why bother. If you mention the above you hate women. It's already been mentioned.

I'm married to a feminist social worker and she advocates for everything you mention except the draft thing, which is just kinda weird...

[SVoid]

Here's what I don't see:


fighting for the obligation to register for the draft
fighting for male custody rights
campaigns to stop male rape
campaigns to stop violence against males
campaigns to educate women on the their roles in DV with a clear message that violence isn't tolerable
campaigns to help boys stay in school
campaigns for men's health
campaigns for stronger sentences for false accusations of rape
the recognition men have a right to stay-at-home and parent


There is more, but why bother. If you mention the above you hate women. It's already been mentioned.

I think you are saying that you don't see feminists do that. To expand on what Jeremy.C says... I have. If you read feminist blogs, podcasts, books, and go to talks we would see these things. Women fought to get in the military. Maybe if we'd let them we would have needed the draft. Feminists agree that it's sexist to keep them out.

In fact, men's health and men being raped has been specifically mentioned this month. In fact, Rebecca Watson took heat when she was talking about male rape when people said it was silly to say that men could be raped. She corrected them. Oh, another feminist raising awareness of a men's issue. You'd almost think she cared about equality or something.

[goodthink]

Now what I have seen:


The wage disparity myth continued to be propagated despite countervailing evidence that shows, all things being equal, women earn 17 percent more than men and start their careers with higher wages. No one seems to care to mention that when men do earn more money than women it's not for equal work. Men work longer hours, and in occupations that kill them. You can't argue against it because 95+ percent of all workplace deaths happen to men, not women.




Continued indifference and silence regarding domestic violence and outright lying when called on it. Women instigate 70 percent of the violence in domestic situations. In homes where the male retaliates, more women then men are treated for injuries. This is from the CDC. The overwhelming evidence shows women initiate and are responsible for at LEAST half of all domestic violence. But society and the media treat abuse against males as a JOKE. It's funny. Talking heads laugh about men having their penises cut off while asleep and defenceless. It's comedy to watch a woman push a man or kick him in the balls. Where is the outcry? Why aren't these groups demanding laws to protect men? Or general legislation against all violence regardless of gender? Where are all the male shelters for male victims?


Where is the push to reform family law to recognize the fact women are NOT the default parent? Why aren't women's groups scrambling to stop family courts from giving the woman preferential treatment in custody cases? I don't see it. Whatever gains are being made are being made by men asserting their rights.


Where is the recognition that men don't have power, that there is no patriarchy, that women are the dominate gender and have the balance of power? Why aren't these groups fighting against the culture of victim hood? Right now they look like Christians complaining about the war on Christmas. Women aren't struggling to find work, complete school and they are the main targets of violence. Why aren't women's group out demanding the value of a man's life be equal to that of a woman?

[Johnny Slick]

OH, I get it now... you weren't looking for an argument. You just wanted to get onto a soapbox. Um, yay team?

[seamas]

Here's what I don't see:


fighting for the obligation to register for the draft
fighting for male custody rights
campaigns to stop male rape
campaigns to stop violence against males
campaigns to educate women on the their roles in DV with a clear message that violence isn't tolerable
campaigns to help boys stay in school
campaigns for men's health
campaigns for stronger sentences for false accusations of rape
the recognition men have a right to stay-at-home and parent

You don't see it?


So it must not exist!



It'd be cool if the "Men's Rights" were like other mainstream advocacy groups and only have the nutters on the fringe.

Looks to me like they make up the heart and mind of the movement.

[SVoid]

Continued indifference and silence regarding domestic violence and outright lying when called on it. Women instigate 70 percent of the violence in domestic situations. In homes where the male retaliates, more women then men are treated for injuries. This is from the CDC. The overwhelming evidence shows women initiate and are responsible for at LEAST half of all domestic violence. But society and the media treat abuse against males as a JOKE. It's funny. Talking heads laugh about men having their penises cut off while asleep and defenceless. It's comedy to watch a woman push a man or kick him in the balls. Where is the outcry? Why aren't these groups demanding laws to protect men? Or general legislation against all violence regardless of gender? Where are all the male shelters for male victims?

Yes, violence against men, rape against men (by men or women) is not taken seriously. You know who does take it seriously? Feminists.

The wage disparity myth continued to be propagated despite countervailing evidence that shows, all things being equal, women earn 17 percent more than men and start their careers with higher wages. No one seems to care to mention that when men do earn more money than women it's not for equal work. Men work longer hours, and in occupations that kill them. You can't argue against it because 95+ percent of all workplace deaths happen to men, not women.

This is interesting. Do you have any information handy that this wasn't actually taken in to account? In fact, part of what you are saying is they were working in different jobs. I think they took that in to account. In fact, I'm sure I heard that women get paid more to start, but men get paid more at the end, but that is because they are in different careers. We are talking about when they are in the same career. My understanding is that women don't get paid more when starting at the same job. Is that what you were saying?

Where is the push to reform family law to recognize the fact women are NOT the default parent? Why aren't women's groups scrambling to stop family courts from giving the woman preferential treatment in custody cases? I don't see it. Whatever gains are being made are being made by men asserting their rights.

Where is the recognition that men don't have power, that there is no patriarchy, that women are the dominate gender and have the balance of power? Why aren't these groups fighting against the culture of victim hood? Right now they look like Christians complaining about the war on Christmas. Women aren't struggling to find work, complete school and they are the main targets of violence. Why aren't women's group out demanding the value of a man's life be equal to that of a woman?

Have you tried looking? Have you noted that feminists help on these issues? Publicise them? Agree with them? Women don't want to be the default parent and feminists have helped with that. And some of those men who want the children are feminists. And of course 'women's groups' don't help with those cases. But can you say feminist groups don't?