Author Topic: Sex Rights  (Read 1294 times)

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Offline snakeman

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Re: Sex Rights
« Reply #45 on: Apr 27, 2012, 01:52:08 PM »
Please note in the following, I'm NOT in any way saying that men are the downtrodden of society (far from it) or looking to stand up as an advocate/crusader.  I'm providing a few references from a quick Google search in answer to the challenge of "prove it" and I have a tendency to run on and be pedantic.  I do, however, stand by the central thesis of my earlier post that there are many constructs in Western society that are very much gender-biased and that some of these do indeed affect men negatively regardless of the fact that there are apparently many more that affect women negatively.

- the fact that it's easier for the woman to gain custody of the child(ren) in a divorce than the man and that, in some areas, the man almost has a "guilty until proven innocent" burden of showing not only why the woman should not have custody but why he would be a better choice than some third party



Is this a fact?


From what I have seen (and I'll grant that I'm not an expert in this particular area and don't intend to become so, I just know the anecdotes that I've collected over time and a few things that Google has helped me find) it appears to be so.  As with all things, it's difficult and messy to tease out the details.  Specifically, the question comes up of how to determine the rate at which custody is granted.  For example, page 2 of this US Census Bureau report from 2007 says that 82.6% of custodial parents are mothers.  On the other hand, the Massachusetts SJC study cited in this article says that fathers get primary or joint custody 70% of the time when they fight for it in court.  As the second article points out, it leaves unaddress the question of those fathers who decide not to fight for custody because they feel the deck is stacked against them because of things like the Census Bureau statistics and it doesn't really break down statistics on how many men fight for custody and what the outcomes are.  Then you have places like this where the statistics sometimes have citations, but the question of bias is very prominent, so who knows how that colors perceptions one way or another.  I guess what I'm saying is that there is an unquestionable gender-based disparity with regards to which parent the kids live with after the divorce and that I have seen some (admittedly weak) data that suggest a bias in the courts which has lead me to generalize more widely from the anecdotes that I have heard.  I'm qualifying my position here a bit and narrowing my brush a bit more than the first off-the-cuff statement, but I still contend that there's a need for a brush of some width.

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- the tendency on domestic disturbance calls, where both partners have been fighting/trading blows and it is he-said/she-said about who started it, to take the male away in handcuffs rather than the female or both


You have any proof of this tendency being the case, any studies?  Any written police procedures?
Somethings saying that police will not arrest someone who assaulted someone just because she is a woman?
Even if the man wants to press charges?

Do a lot of episodes of COPS count?  Seriously though, I don't know of any official written policy statements that say "when it doubt, arrest the man".  This report shows that an offender had a 99% increased likelyhood of being arrested if he was male (see exhibit 8 ) but it claims no gender bias in in arrest rates without looking at all into how police arriving on the scene are determining who the "offender" is in the first place.  Here's where I apply a bit of common sense (and a few episodes of COPS) though.  If you're a police officer arriving on the scene of a domestic disturbance call to find a 110-pound woman with a black eye and scratches and a 210-pound man with a black eye and scratches and both are claiming that the other punched them, who do you arrest?  The man?  The woman?  Both?   Just leave and let them work it out on their own?   I'm betting most cops, being prudent, will arrest the man as he is seen as more dangerous because he larger and male; especially if it's a state with a law on the books saying someone has to go away in handcuffs.


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- the fact that even if both a husband and wife have careers and there are no kids, in some jurisdictions, the husband must still pay alimony to the wife in the event of a divorce - seriously, how is this holdover from the 1800s that assumes a woman can't survive without the support of a man (even when she has a well-paying job) still in existence?

Is this a fact?
Which jurisdictions is this the case?

Actually, it's the case in many jurisdictions.  Check out this calculator to find out how much you'll owe your spouse each week after a divorce.  I know that HuffPo is generally a suspect source, but this article that I found with Google has lots of links to data, examples, and references.  If you need more evidence that alimony and other divorce-related financial institutions based on the idea that a woman is nothing without a man still exist, you have only to look at the gossip tabloids about celebrity divorces and reports of prenups for marriages.  Why is it that two rich celebrities should have to pool all their resources in the marriage and divide it 50/50 when they divorce after a handful of years when they could just divide it proportionally based on relative amounts of assets brought into the marriage?  I contend that it's part of a holdover of outdated sexist laws from Elizabethan England and earlier.

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- the social norm responsible for the stay-at-home dad who takes his kids to the park getting the stink eye from everyone else there as a potential child molester.


You have anything other than anecdotes to support this?

I have taken my kids to the park literally thousands of times--many parks in numerous neighborhoods (neighborhoods where neither I nor the kids are known) in several States. Weekdays and weekends.
I don't get the "stink eye', and see plenty of other fathers in the parks with their children.
Of course my experience is anecdotal, I suppose our anecdotes cancel each other out.


OK, you've got me here.  There are no research articles that I could find about the systematic study of the "stink eye" at public parks.  This is anecdotes from friends, seeing it in action myself, and hearing lots of talk radio were hosts and callers are wondering aloud about why anyone would want to be a stay-at-home dad and "why that guy with no children wants to work with young kids".  Hell, it's all over popular culture with things like "Mr. Mom" and "pedophile Scout masters" and such.  Where do these things come from if not a widespread bias in society.

Online Johnny Slick

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Re: Sex Rights
« Reply #46 on: Apr 27, 2012, 02:25:42 PM »
To the first point... as stated before, my (anecdotal) experience with lawyer friends who used to specialize in divorce law isn't that men won't fight in cases where they feel the deck is stacked against them, it's that men won't fight in cases, period. And again, I do *not* think this resolves the issue. I do think it shifts the burden of the issue from our court system and back into that general gender role erosion thing that is at the core of feminism.
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Offline SVoid

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Re: Sex Rights
« Reply #47 on: Apr 27, 2012, 02:31:02 PM »
I do, however, stand by the central thesis of my earlier post that there are many constructs in Western society that are very much gender-biased and that some of these do indeed affect men negatively

Did anyone every disagree with that idea? In this thread, I mean?
Get off your high horse. It's not enough to be correct. Being correct is only the first step. Your not true a god among men until you can convince others.

Are you presenting facts, or are actually communicating?

Offline SVoid

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Re: Sex Rights
« Reply #48 on: Apr 27, 2012, 02:38:21 PM »
Okay, I actually think that sexism exists against men. But:

1. Trying to show that men getting 70% of the custody they ask for is the system being biased against them?
1a. Men not trying because they don't think they will win doesn't imply anything about the system, but the perception of the system. Maybe the above 30% of men are actually unfit to be parents.

2. It seems like your saying it's reasonable and 'common sense' to take away the guy in domestic abuse. Stepping on your own point?

3. Obviously you didn't read my reply yet. In fact the very thing you linked to was a calculator for how much you pay out. Not how much you pay your wife. The money may well flow in the opposite direction. That's what happens when you divorce and have different incomes. You are inserting gender where it isn't.
Get off your high horse. It's not enough to be correct. Being correct is only the first step. Your not true a god among men until you can convince others.

Are you presenting facts, or are actually communicating?

Offline snakeman

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Re: Sex Rights
« Reply #49 on: Apr 27, 2012, 03:57:57 PM »
I do, however, stand by the central thesis of my earlier post that there are many constructs in Western society that are very much gender-biased and that some of these do indeed affect men negatively

Did anyone every disagree with that idea? In this thread, I mean?

Nope, I haven't seen anyone disagree with that idea directly in the thread.  I just thought it would be a good thing to restate before launching into the wall of text that my posts seem to become - especially walls of text where I'm qualifying and putting conditions and "maybes" on a lot of more assertive statements made earlier when typing quickly.

Offline snakeman

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Re: Sex Rights
« Reply #50 on: Apr 27, 2012, 04:08:51 PM »
Okay, I actually think that sexism exists against men. But:

1. Trying to show that men getting 70% of the custody they ask for is the system being biased against them?
1a. Men not trying because they don't think they will win doesn't imply anything about the system, but the perception of the system. Maybe the above 30% of men are actually unfit to be parents.

Actually, the point I took away form that report was that the data is so muddy you could make any point and no point at all from the same set of statistics.  Hell, I know I didn't do a huge amount of research, but I couldn't even find the numbers upon which those percentages were based or how they defined "men who ask for custody".  The rest is more documentation to show that the system appears unfair to men in some regards.  I work in a world where perception is often reality regardless of what's "true" and I think that sort of lens has bearing on this issue.  Not 100%, but somewhat.

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2. It seems like your saying it's reasonable and 'common sense' to take away the guy in domestic abuse. Stepping on your own point?
Nope, not saying it's "common sense", just saying that many people have that bias of the male as aggressor because of the frequently larger physical size and power.

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3. Obviously you didn't read my reply yet. In fact the very thing you linked to was a calculator for how much you pay out. Not how much you pay your wife. The money may well flow in the opposite direction. That's what happens when you divorce and have different incomes. You are inserting gender where it isn't.
Nope, haven't read your response yet.  Will likely do so later this evening as I've missed a bit of this thread while typing earlier reply and just now see that I've got a bit to catch up on.  My point was to raise the question of why anyone owes anyone else any money at all (after community property assets are divided up) after a divorce, regardless of the disparity in separate income levels.  I could see a case being made for continued health care coverage for a set amount of time (maybe equal to the length of COBRA benefits) if one spouse relied on the other for coverage, but after that, why should getting divorced be treated any differently than being fired from a job or moving to a new state or similar life disruption?  The fact that you were married to a person for a length of time isn't going to make you physically or mentally unfit to earn a living afterward to the point that the other person should continue to give you money.  This is doubly true if both spouses worked prior to the divorce.  The whole concept of alimony is rooted in outdated sexist notions that one person in the marriage (the woman in early 20th century and earlier) was incapable of earning a living or being self-supporting without the spouse.  That seems pretty silly to me.

Offline SVoid

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Re: Sex Rights
« Reply #51 on: Apr 30, 2012, 09:35:55 AM »
I've never argued the alimony thing before. So I'm looking forward to it. I'd never considered it until it was brought up in this thread. Read: I didn't realize it was different from child support. So if you read my post on it I'd love to hear your reply. I think I'm leaning toward thinking that alimony is a good thing.
Get off your high horse. It's not enough to be correct. Being correct is only the first step. Your not true a god among men until you can convince others.

Are you presenting facts, or are actually communicating?

Offline Vincegamer

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Re: Sex Rights
« Reply #52 on: Apr 30, 2012, 01:37:12 PM »
Alimony and child support are two very different things but should always be looked at together when both are there.
This is because of the tax system.
Money you pay your ex spouse as child support is paid after taxes and your ex spouse does not have to identify it as income on his/her taxes.
Money you pay your ex spouse in alimony is tax deductible and your ex spouse has to list it as income on his/her taxes.

So, when working out terms in a divorce, people will often go for one or the other depending on their income and tax situation.
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