Topic: Did the Church kill off the Viking Greenland colony?

[Desert Fox]

I am watching "Secrets of the Dead: Lost Vikings" and the suggestion is that because the Church had disallowed interaction between the Greenland Settlements and the Inuit, the Vikings could not learn the ways that the Inuit dealt with the worsening conditions and died off as a result.

Thoughts on this?

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The "church" never had any control over the Vikings.  It's utter bullshit.

[Desert Fox]

There were a huge number of churches in Greenland from what I am to understand.
Bishops, based on the burial of one, seemed to be an important part of their society.
As well, the church appears to have own 2/3s of the best grazing lands.

[Johnny Slick]

Jared Diamond covered the failure of the settlement in Collapse. I don't remember him invoking the church at any point but certainly the failure of the Norse to adopt the practice of the Inuit was instrumental in the eventual decay and death of the place. Another large factor IIRC was the cooling period that occurred in the late 1300s - 1400s, which transformed the area from a bunch of semi-usable land into icy tundra of death.

[ricree]

From looking at the dates, Greenland colonies seem to either predate, or are around the same time as the spread of Christianity into Scandinavia.  While it wouldn't surprise me if the church did wind up having a presence by the end, the settlers should have had plenty of time to contact and learn from the natives if they were ever going to do so.

[Desert Fox]

From looking at the dates, Greenland colonies seem to either predate, or are around the same time as the spread of Christianity into Scandinavia.  While it wouldn't surprise me if the church did wind up having a presence by the end, the settlers should have had plenty of time to contact and learn from the natives if they were ever going to do so.

Something seems to have prevented the Vikings from adapting to Inuit life style and they should have noticed that while they are starving, the Inuit were not.

In this article, the indication is that Bishops were being sent as early as the 1200s

Early in the twelfth century they dispatched one of their leaders, Einar Sokkason, to Norway to convince the king to send them a bishop. Bishop Arnald was chosen for the job, despite the hapless man's protestation that "I am no good at handling difficult people."

[Anders]

The "church" never had any control over the Vikings.  It's utter bullshit.

You're wrong. There were quite a few devout Vikings.

[Shibboleth]

Plenty of the first people to settle in America died of starvation including the pilgrims even after interaction with the natives. Even if the Vikings would have interacted heavily with the natives I highly doubt that they would have conformed to their way of life.

[Johnny Slick]

There's a pretty big difference, though, between a group which maintained its basic identity while learning the techniques of survival from the natives in the New World (a la the Pilgrims) and not paying any attention whatsoever to the actions of the skraelings and maintaining their holdings exactly the way they maintained them in Europe no matter how silly that might have been. I will say that owing to the climate, the Vikings probably would have had to make larger concessions to their basic way of life to survive where they settled than the English did at Plymouth Rock (or Jamestown for that matter).

[ricree]

Something seems to have prevented the Vikings from adapting to Inuit life style and they should have noticed that while they are starving, the Inuit were not.

In this article, the indication is that Bishops were being sent as early as the 1200s

Early in the twelfth century they dispatched one of their leaders, Einar Sokkason, to Norway to convince the king to send them a bishop. Bishop Arnald was chosen for the job, despite the hapless man's protestation that "I am no good at handling difficult people."

Settlements such as Brattahlid were founded by the end of the 10th century.  Yeah, that's early enough for Christianity to be present, but it was far from predominate.  Moreover, these settlements lasted hundreds of years.

So while they weren't exactly doing great, it's not like they simply showed up and starved either.

[ricree]

Or perhaps I'm misunderstanding your point.

Are you saying that Christianity was the cause of failure to adapt during the little ice age towards the end of the settlements' lifespan, rather than a general trend?

[seamas]

What was the Viking relationship with the church in those days anyhow--
Was it akin to the monastic Catholicism of the Irish at the time?

I know for centuries the Irish were really on the fringes of the Vatican's influence and were more centered around the monestaries

[Desert Fox]

Settlements such as Brattahlid were founded by the end of the 10th century.  Yeah, that's early enough for Christianity to be present, but it was far from predominate.  Moreover, these settlements lasted hundreds of years.

So while they weren't exactly doing great, it's not like they simply showed up and starved either.

Fair enough. . . .Testing the argument to see if I can get a useful argument out of it

When Iceland was first settled, the environment was relatively benign because they were in a warm period. They were able to grow cattle and sheep there.

The little ice age started around 1350 and I believe a visit only about a half century later found the colony abandoned. During this time, The Icelanders were able to adapt by going to fishing. At the same time, the Inuit were also able to survive through fishing and hunting wild game. Fish was not a big part of the Greenlander's diet compared to either one.

The suggestion is that the local Church remained a stopper which prevented the Greenland Vikings from changing and adapting. The church has long been known to resist change. I grant that we all are but they seem to be worse than normal.

[arthwollipot]

The "church" never had any control over the Vikings.  It's utter bullshit.

You're wrong. There were quite a few devout Vikings.

King (later Saint) Olaf I converted Norway to Christianity before 1000AD, frequently under threat of sword and fire. The last great Viking king, Harald Hardradr, made a pilgrimage to Jerusalem and served in the Varangian guard of the (Christian) Byzantine emperor.

There are many myths about the Vikings. That they wore horned helmets, that they were filthy and violent all the time, that they were always pagans...

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    No true Viking would ever bow to any church.   Much less let some idiot church crap cause them to starve to death.