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My Kangen water skeptical moment
Alex Simmons:
So I had a small electrical wiring job done at home. As the electrician is leaving, he asks (seeing that I'm an active cyclist) - "have you tried ionized water?" and then goes on to tell me about the benefits of better hydration, smaller water clusters, better energy, health etc etc...
He's a nice guy so I tried to let him down gently. But that didn't work. Out came the DVD for me to watch, then the follow up emails with brochure and links to all the published science - all 46 pages of it.
So I'm about to respond as it now needs to be knocked on the head. I just hope he hasn't got burned in a multi level marketing scheme, but anyhoo, here's a copy of my email to him below. There are a sentences and paragraphs here and there I lifted off Brian Dunning's Skeptoid site and Steven Lower's "Ionized and Alkaline Water" site (links below).
Hi XXXX
I hate to break it to you, but the majority of the material in the brochure is pseudoscience nonsense and pretty typical of multi level marketing schemes.
I’ll go through some of the claims made, but I’m not going to bother with all of them as you’ll get the general idea. I’m not being rude, I’m just stating the science, which is pretty well non-existent in the material provided. Indeed it is so misleading that I honestly think the ACCC should be taking a look at it. Ranks right up there in the scam and nonsense stakes with homeopathy, acupuncture and chiropractic.
The Susan Lark M.D. often referenced in the brochure is a purveyor of a host of pseudoscientific alternative medical treatments. i.e. treatments that are either proven not to work, or not proven to work.
I just hope you haven’t blown any money on these things.
Cheers
Alex
Ionized water
Ionized water is a chemically meaningless term. You can’t ionize water to any degree. You have to add chemicals to it and as a consequence you change the solution’s pH so that it is acidic or alkaline.
Over acidity of the body causes of all sorts of ailments (many of which are listed in the brochure)
To paraphrase Brian Dunning*: There has never been any plausible research to show any connection between these diseases and body acidity, this appears to be completely made up. This is a case of using simplistic terminology to sell a product to the scientifically illiterate.
Even if it were true, our body's acidity is not, in any way, affected by the pH of what we eat or drink. Eating alkaline food stimulates production of acidic digestive enzymes, and eating acidic foods causes the stomach to produce fewer acids. Our body's primary mechanism for the control of pH is to breathe out carbon dioxide, which governs the amount of carbonic acid in the blood.
“Free-radicals”, anti-oxidants and early aging
Again with reference to Brian Dunning*: Although oxidation does contribute to some age-related diseases, consuming antioxidants does not affect normal aging. Even if they did, you wouldn't get them from alkalized water: When water is alkalized, it contains hypochlorites, which are oxidizing agents, i.e. the opposite of what is claimed!
Indeed more recent research is suggesting that anti-oxidants may in fact have the opposite effect to the claims made of the health benefits.
Lactic acid’s impact on sport’s performance
Honestly, this age old exercise myth has been debunked for so long (for at least 40 years) I’m amazed it’s still trotted out. It’s embarrassing to still read it in marketing literature. I suggest becoming acquainted with the role of lactate as a fuel source while exercising, and the “life cycle” of lactic acid. Acidity has nothing to do with delayed onset muscle soreness either, another bogus claim.
A $4000 water filter/ioniser?
I can make exactly the same water by taking regular water and putting in a little sodium hypochlorite, which is pretty easy really, just a few drops of chlorine bleach will do the trick in roughly a 1:4000 ratio, meaning 1 litre of bleach costing 65 cents at Coles will yield me 4000 litres of magic water. Although I think a little sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) would be better than bleach.
I can make an “ioniser” myself for less than $100 with a few bits and pieces lying around the house and from the local Hardware store, and drop in a little salt.
Hexagonal water / smaller clusters of H2O
As per Steven Lower**: This is just nonsense. There is no scientific evidence to support assertions about the existence of water clusters or its beneficial effects on tissue hydration. There is no way that H2O molecules in liquid water can be stabilized or retained in the hexagonal configuration. I suggest reading up on the actual science of water’s structure. It is far more interesting than this load of cobblers.
As for the science links provided in the other email, the majority are just anecdotal reports, which are scientifically meaningless, and/or not relevant to the effects of consumption of such water by humans. There is not one relevant peer review study published in a reputable journal listed. Taking each:
#1 and #2 are pure speculation, findings not supported by evidence
#3 has nothing to do with consumption of such water, but rather vitamin C, strawberries, spinach and red wine
#4 thru #10, #12 & #13, #32 are just anecdotal reports, and are of no or extremely limited scientific value
#14. again is just anecdote and speculation
#15 seems relevant as a double blind placebo controlled study, however it does not appear to have ever been published, nor peer reviewed (it did not appear in my search of published scientific literature). It does not state the composition of the water used— a failure that would probably guarantee rejection by a mainstream medical journal
#16 is just speculation
#17, #18, #20, #22, #23, #24, #27, #28, #34: Rats & mice are not people
#19 #20 are irrelevant – they are about magnesium content of water
#21 needs more investigation
#25 is about sterilising kitchen cutting boards!
#26, #27, #28 are about topical use of such water for wound healing – nothing to do with human consumption
#29 is about flowers!
#30 is about alfalfa!!
#31 is about salmonella in/on chicken
#32 is about cows
#33 is a sports science recommendation on hydration from ACSM which does not even mention reduced water! Indeed it gives plenty of suggestions on what an athlete should do (pretty much the same advice can be found on the AIS website) and it does not involved reduced water
#34 is about distilled water, again nothing to do with reduced water.
#35 - there is no #35
So out of all material listed, there is one study suggesting reasonable science practice (double blind, placebo control), however it does not appear to have been published or peer reviewed (always a bad sign), nor the results replicated by a published study, and one other study that suggests further investigation is warranted (but unless it's published, that won't likely happen).
One needs a body of evidence to demonstrate a claim as plausible and I’m afraid that list is most definitely not a body of evidence. If anything it is clutching at straws to claim so and indeed is a pretty good indicator that supports the null hypothesis.
As to their opening paragraphs:
Here is a "short list" of 35 scientific studies and articles about Kangen Water that were written by reputable scientists from around the world.
* As I have shown, there are one, maybe two relevant science studies in that list but neither are peer reviewed or published, always a bad sign.
* The reputation of scientists (which isn’t demonstrated in any case) is irrelevant and is what’s known as “an appeal to authority”. What matters is the evidence, and it’s exceptionally thin I’m afraid.
The Science that has made Kangen Water possible began in the 1850's however, over the past 50 years most of it has been carried out in Asia where preventative medicine has long been valued as a superior approach to Western Medicine's health crisis, "fix it after the fact" approach to health care.
* Again a classical logical fallacy rolling up an “appeal to tradition” and avoiding the reality that such claims have not yet stood up to proper scientific testing. This is line usually trotted out when one cannot plausibly demonstrate something actually works.
* The history of Asian medicine is one where use of evidence based medicine (“western medicine”) has always been used and preferred where it was available and affordable.
* Not a single account of a placebo-controlled clinical study on alkaline/ionized water in humans has ever appeared in a mainstream, peer-reviewed medical journal. If there is 160 years of science, why has not one study stood up to peer review and publication? The answer is most plausibly because they already know the answer, i.e. it doesn’t work. Hence the effort goes into pseudo scientific claims and marketing tricks.
Skeptical people may doubt the validity of the 50 plus years of science that supports drinking Kangen Water. They will cite the noisy prattle of a few self proclaimed "Debunkers and Quackbusters" who for personal reasons decry the proven benefits of drinking Kangen Water .
* No, skeptical people are guided by actual evidence and are not fooled by false and misleading claims. I have no reason or personal agenda in reviewing the actual evidence. You asked my opinion, I’ve done my research.
* You supplied some document purported to be evidence and I’ve looked through it. If that represent the best evidence, well I’m afraid it’s a pretty lame list. I suspect it was designed to contain some volume to suggest validity – another fallacy known as “Proof by Verbosity”
Sources:
* Brian Dunning – Skeptoid.com episode “Kangan Water”
http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4139
** Steven Lower - "Ionized" and alkaline water
http://www.chem1.com/CQ/ionbunk.html
kakaydin:
That looks pretty thorough and even-handed. I really like the tone your e-mail takes- concerned, informative and not nearly as dismissive as skeptical positions are often perceived. Hopefully, the electrician will get a better understanding of the skeptical perspective and maybe even recognize the Kangen Krap for what it is.
Let us know how he responds!
Alex Simmons:
--- Quote from: kakaydin on May 08, 2012, 04:33:16 PM ---That looks pretty thorough and even-handed. I really like the tone your e-mail takes- concerned, informative and not nearly as dismissive as skeptical positions are often perceived. Hopefully, the electrician will get a better understanding of the skeptical perspective and maybe even recognize the Kangen Krap for what it is.
Let us know how he responds!
--- End quote ---
Actually funny enough I just sent it, I toned a couple of words down and added a little more here and there. As a home electrician, he's the perfect target for these companies, always going into people's homes just long enough to strike up a conversation, leave a brochure or DVD. He seems a nice fellow, well meaning. I just hope he hasn't been suckered into buying a load of product.
Alex Simmons:
and so the emails go on. In response to my email, this was his reply:
Hi ALex
Thank you for your candid thoughts.
I believe there is science behind it, I sent you some clinical studies, have you had a chance to go over them.
I also have been on the water myself and true feel the difference.
It is total acknowledged in Japan by the Health professions and heath authorizes as being one of the most important thing that you can do for your body.
I don't expect to change your mind but it would be great for me to have you try the water for a few week
at no cost or obligation so that I know its not or is a hoax as a experiment. if there is no change in your self then I will recant and never bother you about the water again.
Let me know your thoughts?
Cheers
<name removed>
So I respond with:
Hi <>
Yes I went through the “studies”, my previous email outlines my thoughts on those. Did you read through it all?
The “studies” shown are mostly irrelevant (see my comments in previous email) or not studies at all, just anecdotal reports. There are no published clinical trials listed at all. The science claimed in the brochure isn’t really science, it’s simply a lot of made up stuff with no grounding in reality.
I’ll pass on the trial thanks. My tap does a fine job in delivering me water.
All the best with the bike riding – now that is something that will definitely help with your health and well being ;-)
Many thanks
Alex
Alex Simmons:
Not put off by that, my sparky mate decided to have one more crack:
Sorry just realized the in depth write up you did.
I just ended at you sign off.
I will go over what you have written and get back to you.
It seems you have made up your mind. I believe the evaluation
of data and the results is what science is all about not if its got the "right' authorities to validate it,
I do want to get into the unbiased science to get to the truth.
"As the truth will set you free" as they say.
How do you account for the many, many results that people are get every day with the water?
I hope that I am not annoying you. If you don't want me to continue in this I will stop but you did say you are open to thing.
Cheers
<>
To which I replied:
Hi <>
It’s what we call a placebo effect. Like riding a new much more expensive new bike – you feel faster, although in reality you are not.
People are mugs and fall for clever sounding gimmicks all the time. E.g. How many people bought “power balance bands”?
The claims made contradict the basic laws of chemistry and physiology. It does matter that the right people evaluate these things, because the right people will report the actual evidence based on sound scientific method, irrespective of the outcome. It has nothing to do with “the right authorities”, what matters is the evidence, not who does it or delivers it. And I mean real evidence, not the marketing claims, spin and irrelevant material provided which purports to be evidence.
How do you account for the many, many people who feel great and don’t consume this magic water?
And by the way, most doctors are not scientists. And doctors who prescribe such water for treatment will be doing so on there being no clinical basis for it. That would be unethical.
I have inspected the science and the truth. That you cannot perceive the difference between actual science and pseudoscience nonsense is something I’m afraid I don’t think I can help you with. I have given you some suggested reading, and pointed you to some real science.
I don’t need any more emails, unless they are actual evidence. Not marketing claims, not anecdotes, not celebrity endorsements, but real evidence in the form of papers published in reputable scientific journals using sound scientific methodology. You will have a hard time locating them, since such evidence does not exist. That’s because the claims are fallacious.
Cheers
Alex
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