Author Topic: Need feedback on an atheism/agnosticism debate I just had.  (Read 1170 times)

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Offline Shibboleth

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Re: Need feedback on an atheism/agnosticism debate I just had.
« Reply #15 on: May 11, 2012, 11:04:03 AM »
so, yes or no, do you believe there are aliens on other planets? The answer cannot be "I don't know" because I didn't ask if you know there are aliens on other planets.
 
"Do you believe" is asking if you accept that proposition. Whether you "neither accept nor reject" or you "reject" is not material to my question. If you say neither, then the answer to my question is "no".

I neither believe or disbelieve that there are aliens on other planets.

False conundrum. The two possibilities are not ("yes" and "not yes"). I do have a belief about aliens on other planets. That belief is "possibly".
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Online Johnny Slick

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Re: Need feedback on an atheism/agnosticism debate I just had.
« Reply #16 on: May 11, 2012, 11:42:14 AM »
I neither believe or disbelieve that there are aliens on other planets.
That's not what the person asked. Do you believe that there are aliens on other planets or not?
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Offline Shibboleth

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Re: Need feedback on an atheism/agnosticism debate I just had.
« Reply #17 on: May 11, 2012, 11:45:43 AM »
I neither believe or disbelieve that there are aliens on other planets.
That's not what the person asked. Do you believe that there are aliens on other planets or not?

False dichotomy.
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Online Johnny Slick

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Re: Need feedback on an atheism/agnosticism debate I just had.
« Reply #18 on: May 11, 2012, 11:56:45 AM »
No, sorry, it's not. Some questions do actually get to be answered "yes" or "no". In this case, if you believe this, then the answer is "yes". If you do anything other than believe this, for instance you're not sure, the answer is "no".
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Online Calinthalus

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Re: Need feedback on an atheism/agnosticism debate I just had.
« Reply #19 on: May 11, 2012, 12:00:26 PM »

I believe there are aliens out there somewhere.  I don't know that there are aliens out there and my belief is subject to change with further evidence.  I make the choice to believe because I find it hard to believe we are the only living creatures evolved in the vastness of space.  I can't say, "I don't know" as an answer to whether I believe it or not.  I can only answer "I don't know" as to whether I know or not.
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Offline Shibboleth

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Re: Need feedback on an atheism/agnosticism debate I just had.
« Reply #20 on: May 11, 2012, 12:07:56 PM »
I do not believe absolutely that the North Star still exists. I believe it probably still exists. I do not believe absolutely that the sun will rise in the East tomorrow. I believe it will probably rise in the East tomorrow. In all cases I do believe something.
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Online Johnny Slick

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Re: Need feedback on an atheism/agnosticism debate I just had.
« Reply #21 on: May 11, 2012, 12:30:32 PM »
Adding in extra words to questions is also kind of weaselly behavior.
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Offline Shibboleth

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Re: Need feedback on an atheism/agnosticism debate I just had.
« Reply #22 on: May 11, 2012, 12:49:14 PM »
Adding in extra words to questions is also kind of weaselly behavior.

I have to if someone is trying to force an absolute dichotomy into predicate logic.


Person 1. "Do you believe aliens exist?"

Person 2. "No."

Person 1. "So you do not have a belief about the existence aliens."

Person 2. "I do have a belief in the existence of aliens."

Person 1. "Oh, so you actively believe and have concluded that there are not aliens."

Person 2. "No"

Person 1. "Then you are like a baby and do not have a belief about aliens."

Person 2. "I have a belief about aliens. I believe that they might exist. As far as I know a baby doesn't have a belief about aliens possibly existing."

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Online Johnny Slick

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Re: Need feedback on an atheism/agnosticism debate I just had.
« Reply #23 on: May 11, 2012, 04:28:35 PM »
Someone's projecting...
"Ignorance is like a delicate exotic fruit; touch it and the bloom is gone." - Oscar Wilde

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Offline JuniorSpaceman

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Re: Need feedback on an atheism/agnosticism debate I just had.
« Reply #24 on: May 11, 2012, 04:58:35 PM »
This was a mistake, IMO. It was irrelevant, you knew exactly what Fellow was talking about. There was no need to bring this up at all. You should have said something like "I do not believe that god does exist, which is different from believing that god doesn't exist."

I don't understand your objection here at all. Which god should we assume an agnostic is talking about when he asks "Do you believe in god?"

Seriously? What culture are you a part of? Is there no default religion where you are?

Yes, seriously. I'm surrounded by, and part of, several different cultures regarding god. If one of my religious family members asked me the question, they would mean the god that created the world, and led the Jews through a bunch of wars and insists on what I should eat and who I should marry, but absolutely did not come to earth in the form of a man. If it was one of my Christian friends who I debate with, they would mean a god who did a bunch of slightly interesting things, but crowned his mission by dying for my sins. They also may or may not believe that he performs a miracle every time they eat a wafer and drink wine in church, whereby they eat his actual bodily constituents.

These people are giving a (somewhat) coherent implied answer to the question "which god?", and I can go ahead and say that I outright do not believe in what they are claiming. The question from an agnostic, though, is incoherent, unless I know that they're a Christian agnostic or Buddhist agnostic or whatever. The broader culture doesn't help in a one on one conversation.

Offline Shibboleth

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Re: Need feedback on an atheism/agnosticism debate I just had.
« Reply #25 on: May 11, 2012, 07:26:55 PM »
Someone's projecting...


while gesticulating. 
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Offline Vincegamer

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Re: Need feedback on an atheism/agnosticism debate I just had.
« Reply #26 on: May 11, 2012, 09:41:15 PM »
I neither believe or disbelieve that there are aliens on other planets.
That's not what the person asked. Do you believe that there are aliens on other planets or not?

False dichotomy.
Actually you provided 3 options and for the sake of argument I accepted your 3 options and asked if the first one was the case. If it's false then you are arguing insincerely since you told me what the options were.
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Offline Shibboleth

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Re: Need feedback on an atheism/agnosticism debate I just had.
« Reply #27 on: May 12, 2012, 09:31:03 AM »
It is a false dichotomy in that "Do you believe in God" isn't just a yes or no question.

As pointed out if I am held to just saying yes or no to that question I have to say things like.

I do not believe the sun will rise in the east tomorrow.
I do not believe Betelgeuse still exists.
etc...

All of those statements have caveats.

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Offline Vincegamer

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Re: Need feedback on an atheism/agnosticism debate I just had.
« Reply #28 on: May 12, 2012, 11:18:27 AM »
or you could say you DO believe those things. (I suspect you actually do believe those things)

I do1, because I can accept a proposition as true based on evidence until sufficient evidence suggests otherwise.

If you didn't mean to say there are 3 possible answers, then why did you say it?







1I believe what those phrases generally are used to mean, not the literalness of the sun rising and without having to go into the time element of a stellar body "existing".
« Last Edit: May 12, 2012, 11:22:48 AM by Vincegamer »
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Offline Shibboleth

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Re: Need feedback on an atheism/agnosticism debate I just had.
« Reply #29 on: May 12, 2012, 12:03:39 PM »
I honestly believe the sun might rise in the East tomorrow. I do not know hit the Earth an tip it on its side. I find the possibility of that happening highly unlikely but at the end of the day I still believe the sun might rise in the East tomorrow.

According to your criteria if confronted by the question, "Do you believe that the sun will rise in the East tomorrow." I have to say, "No, I do not believe the sun will rise in the East tomorrow."
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